all posts post new thread

Old Forum kettlebells and yoga

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

NJRick

Level 3 Valued Member
It's not exactly vodka and pickle juice but I believe it could be a great combination.  I have recently helped my yogi girlfriend start strength training with the S&S program.  While I have been getting strong with S&S I am also getting very tight even with the stretches.  So just as I am helping her strength train she is helping me learn yoga in order to loosen up.  Does anybody have any experience with yoga and strength training?  Would love to hear the opinions of this forum.
 
I believe all hatha yogis should so some form of strength training but not all strength trainers need to do yoga.     If you were athletic as a kid and move decently as an adult athlete I do not believe hatha yoga will do much for you.  If you have alot of limitations from a lifetime of being sedentary then yes, yoga will go a long way.  Your yoga experience will be a product of your previous athletic experience as much as it is a product of the actual practice.

 

Yoga is a funny thing in that most people start practicing it, reach a certain level of flexibility and strength,  and then spend the rest of their lives doing the same postures over and over again.  Yoga is also somewhat limited because the more advanced poses, the postures that could be considered strength postures, are nearly impossible to access for most students.  If a yoga student does not have a background in gymnastics or something similar they will very rarely become competent at the arm balances which are basically the same stuff you would practice if you were doing CC.

 

I also do not think adults can increase their flexibility as much as many folks believe unless they had some sort of training as a child.   An adult with little previous training may add a couple of inches to their forward and backward bends through a dedicated yoga practice but if you are a 40 year old male with typical tight hamstrings you are not going to change the situation that much.  I guess some folks will disagree with this (there are a lot of flexibility training books out there!) but I watched adults in both martial arts classes and yoga classes for almost 20 years and I have never seen a person go from very tight to very limber unless they were trained as a child.

 

For me personally the day I took my first yoga class I knew I would be teaching it within 6 months, and I did!  I practiced Okinawan Gojuryu very seriously as a child and this gave me a good deal of flexibility and body awareness.  Yoga was very easy for me in the early stages.  Don't get me wrong, it can be a good "workout" but basic yoga postures are very simple and if a beginner can not access them moderately easily it is almost always a sign that they have no movement practice behind them.

 

I have been teaching some of the largest yoga classes in Hollywood CA since 1999 and am in my 3rd year of practicing hardstyle kettlebelling seriously.   I have done almost no yoga for the past 5 years and do not keep this a secret from my clients and students!  I try very hard to turn yogis, particularly the ones who want to lose weight and truly get in shape, into kettlebellers!
 
I recommend you purchase, read, and follow the advice in Pavel's "Relax Into Stretch" and "Super Joints" - you may read about both on my web page that gives a brief description of all of Pavel's flexibility and joint health materials, link below:

http://www.kbnj.com/flexguide.htm

That's what I do, and while people often ask me if I "do yoga," the answer is a No.

-S-
 
NJRick-

if you're becoming tighter as you described from your strength practice then you're doing variations your body is not yet ready for.  I'd suggest finding someone who USES and understands the FMS to discover what variations of pushing, pulling, hinging, and squatting your body is ready for, and addressing the needed weak links to earn authentic strength.  Pavel's movements in those works mentioned by Steve are superb, without the proper context however you're likely to chase symptoms without addressing the root cause(s) of your mobility issues.

Stephen,

I understand your conclusions based on your observations, however I have to respectfully disagree due to my experience and that of others I have met and learned from.

I have been "tight" since my childhood, and now move better in all ways, especially my ability to squat.  This is due to using FMS/ StrongFirst methodologies and being willing to set my ego aside and strengthen my movement patterns, even without weight when needed. (special thanks to Brandon Hetzler and movement restoration in addition to the FMS).

For example: for three months my "squat" consisted of training that pattern solely on my back, utilizing increased stability from the ground.  Along with the correct postures, movements, soft-tissue work I upped my PR to a double 78 kg FSQ x 3, while only ever practicing the FSQ with a pair of 24's for 1 set once or twice a week throughout the three months.

The line between "movement" and "strength" has become increasingly blurred as I've seriously devoted myself to earning my strength, rather than continuously attempting to add more weight and force my body into positions that I don't possess the prerequisite mobility and stability to acquire without weight.

Chronic mobility issues are due to our culture, particularly the amount of time we sit, anyone (barring permanent structural changes arising from severe traumas, surgeries, etc.) can re-learn to authentically move if they learn the way we do in the first place.  From the ground up.

 
 
Zach wrote:
Pavel’s movements in those works mentioned by Steve are superb, without the proper context however you’re likely to chase symptoms without addressing the root cause(s) of your mobility issues.
Click to expand...
Just to be clear, the movements in Super Joints aren't intended to treat or cure any symptoms or conditions. You just do them and, if you're anything like me, you start to move better in all ways - your joints feel better and are more mobile, you are more flexible and, as a result, often your form at your lifts improves.

-S-
 
NJ, I love doing a quick 15 minute practice once or twice a week.  My wife works in a bikram studio, but it's not for me.  With all respect due, I didn't find Relax Into Stretch to be very helpful to me.

Specifically, I like doing the practices from YogaToday.com.  You can subscribe to their site for $10/month and stream a practice everyday, or just download some of the freebie podcasts from the iTunes store.  My favorites are "Better Than Coffee," and "Smile."
 
Just to be clear, the movements in Super Joints aren’t intended to treat or cure any symptoms or conditions. You just do them and, if you’re anything like me, you start to move better in all ways – your joints feel better and are more mobile, you are more flexible and, as a result, often your form at your lifts improves.

"symptom" was a poor word choice, I was not referring to a medical issue.
 
NK, have you read Brandon Hofer's articles on yoga and SFG kettlebell training over at Breaking Muscle?  If not, I think he has some good ideas.

From my own experience, as a 50 something former endurance athlete (rowing), with a few decades of mileage and bumps on my chassis, I can now  drop into Pavel's 'roadkill split' on demand, without 'warming up', and remain very relaxed.  Pavel's 'Beyond Stretching' seminar DVD set was a great help for me.

Otherwise, as part of my recovery from rowing, and desk work induced mobility restrictions, I've incorporated FMS correctives,  and Hatha Yoga as an adjunct to my new interest in kettlebell training and karate.  As an aside, I see some horrible 'stretching' being performed at karate classes, Prof McGill would not approve at all.  Beware of 'relative compensatory flexibility', or 'false flexibility' as Pavel describes it.

With that in mind, in my opinion, it's a question of mastering the basics and practising movement as a skill.   Haven't we heard that before :)

 
 
Mike, sounds like you've done very well for yourself.   If you haven't already, it would be great if you'd post reviews of the books and DVD's you mentioned.

-S-
 
I agree that Super Joints is an excellent resource and should be a part of everyone's normal mobility practice. However I think the multi-segmented approach of yoga has it's own benefits. I think that when people think of yoga, they have an idea in their mind of what that means and can't see all of the different areas of focus or the range of movements that are "allowed". For me, I do the type of yoga that allows me to hold a pose in a position that will allow my fascia to slowly "lose it's grip" a bit, all while getting my "core" stronger and allowing certain muscles the opportunity to relax. But what I've recently come to understand is that once you develop a certain level of core strength, the rest of you now has the freedom to loosen up.

There was a Scandinavian study done in 2009 that showed that lumbo-pelvic stability training showed an improvement in hamstring stiffness (flexibility). If you follow the concept of mobility coming from stability, this makes sense. When the core is strong enough the hamstrings don't have to try and handle the stability function and can loosen up. BTW, this also commonly happens with the diaphragm being used as a postural muscle instead of a respiratory muscle as it should. So while I don't think the extremes of yoga postures are necessary (and are probably counter productive based on the increasing number of cases of FAI in yoga practitioners), I think the development of strength and mobility across body segments merits its inclusion into a total body health practice.
 
Whatever exercise you do, if you do it mindfully, focusing on the movements and the breath, in my opinion you are doing yoga. Yoga is a mind body connection, that's all. You can do yoga sitting in a lotus position, doing a few chants, bending your leg behind your neck whilst breathing through your ears and having a herbal tea, laced with ginseng and organic lavendar. If that floats your boat, great. You can do a sun salutation - plank, hindu push up, cobra with syncronised breathing and you are doing yoga, or having a good solid bodyweight workout. You could sit in a sauna, sweat your pants off and do a few backbends or you could go to a bikram yoga session. Yoga, I think, has become corrupted. It is a market and not there is anything wrong with that but I don't see a difference if you apply  yoga principles to all exercise, that is to attain a mind body connection. Or being mindful. Kettlebells fit that model absolutely. I did ashtanga yoga for a few years some 20 years ago and whilst I enjoyed it at the time, I didn't really gain much in strength or flexibility, nor was I particularly relaxed. I stopped because I found it too stressful, oddly. Rushing to classes and getting annoyed that I didn't seem to be progressing in any way. So it wasn't for me. However, I did enjoy sun salutations and carried on doing them in my own time when I felt like it. In my recent fitness goals - all aimed at being a better runner - I revisited old mobility drills I did when younger, got into bodyweight training again, learnt to be a kid again, ie doing parkour (lite, I'm 50 now) and KBs have given me greater insight and drew me to this conclusion. There is always new stuff to learn, new skills to improve, more knowledge gained and all that can be learned from studying all health and fitness pursuits. Whatever they are, if they are practiced diligently and mindfully then it is yoga. I used to jog. I now run. I'm not running much at the moment but when I do I relax, listen to what my body is doing and run for the enjoyment of it. I don't listen to music. I used to when I jogged and, for me and I can only speak for me, it is relaxing and liberating being outside in a natural environment listening to natural sounds rather than the beat of a drum. I also go out and do some kick a#@ sprinting - full power, bosh, short and sweet and then I'll go out and mix it up when and how I feel and jump over a few walls and climb stuff in an unstructured what the hell fashion. I'm doing a trampoline class tonight and the rest of the week I'll do S&S. I can't sit in a lotus position and probably never will but I'm doing yoga all the time. Hopefully, somehow, that makes sense.

ommmmm

Alistair
 
Super Joints has been my "hangover cure" for the days after my first 5x5 cycle. I've gone from not being able to move properly until warm up the day after to bouncing out of bed like a tiger. Super Joints in the morning is for the body what freshly ground coffee is for the soul.
 
Great posts Joe, and Mike.  In the last 6 months I've been fortunate enough to be introduced to Fascial Lines (from the excellent book Anatomy Trains), which has created a different context for me to view and apply both postural work and strength training.  Proximal stability creating distal mobility as you mentioned, as well as reinforcing the other tenets of the FMS approach.
 
Thought I'd add my $.02 here: I absolutely think yoga is a great addition to an overall routine. Myself personally, I've been practicing and teaching Bikram yoga for 13 years. Didn't start yoga until into my 30s and previously had lots of injuries from ill-informed weightlifting. I will say like anything else, a person's flexibility may have some genetic limits but saying adults can't get more flexible is like saying they can't get stronger or more mobile. Also, I'm not sure what the issue is with practicing the same postures. I plan on practicing swings and getups for the rest of my life as well as the yoga series I practice. "Same but different" yes?

That said, I agree 100% that every yoga practitioner should do some strength training. That's all been covered by guys like Cook and others much smarter than myself. For me the best way to boil it down is that we need a combination of static and dynamic moves. I train my yoga from a strength perspective first and allow flexibility to happen if my body desires it. I exclusively did nothing but yoga for years and then I felt this "hole" in my development and desired strength training again. Luckily I saw an add with Pavel and enter the Kettlebell. This lead to getting into Naked Warrior. I had never heard of a pistol squat and nailed it right out of the gate all from my Bikram practice.

I agree 100% with the perspective of StongFirst and I think that unfortunately, most yoga is pushed from the "noodle body" perspective. This leads to more harm than good. Overwhelmingly, a tight guy benefits tremendously from my class and almost never gets hurt. It's like his tightness is a built in safety valve. The flexible dancer type is always my biggest challenge. Too much flexibility without the corresponding strength to hold good and safe alignment leads to problems. The saddest thing is a healthy pain free person coming in and getting hurt.

I know this is getting long. Anyway, to borrow from Dan John (and by the way, ladies and gentlemen of StrongFirst, you have really helped my own perspective on teaching immensely with your knowledge) I use my yoga more for enhancing my health (harmonious functioning of organs and systems) and not as much for fitness although it does help. However, i do believe you need strength and cardio for all around fitness "to complete your specific task." I use the yoga postures to tone and stimulate organs and glands above all. I am so much healthier for it. A year of practice and I never needed an antacid or peptobismal which I lived on for years. little things like that greatly improved my life and I never got those effects from weightraining, martial arts or calisthenics.

So, in summary, a yoga class is a wonderful addition to your health may be a great addition to your fitness as well. Give it a shot. I am obviously partial to Bikram especially if your over 30 and have issues with knees, shoulders or low back. But like anything, find a style that speaks to you and good instruction and you're on your way!
 
Mike, sounds like you’ve done very well for yourself.   If you haven’t already, it would be great if you’d post reviews of the books and DVD’s you mentioned.
Thank you, Steve, but does that mean I have to go to DD to review 'Beyond Stretching'?  Am I allowed??

It's ok, I'm joking!

Seriously, Zach, Chris, and Joe have made some great points regarding the need for proximal stability for distal mobility, and the dangers of hyper flexibility.   My limited understanding of the FMS, DNS, and McGill's research forms the core (pardon me) of the home practise that seems to have served me well (Pavel's influence should go without saying :)).

Anecdotally, I've met several female instructors (or rather, 'models') of market driven, yoga/Pilates hybrids over the years and ALL of them suffered quite frequent  bouts of low back pain regardless of their drawn-in navels and low back stretches (of course, they may have been drawn to those hybrids in order to 'cure'  pre-existing pain, so there could well be a sampling error, but I imagine that their quest for the ultimate stretch didn't serve them well).  Therefore, I can understand those who are cynical about the utility of so-called 'yoga' classes.  The moral is, find a competent, principled teacher.

Kelly Starrett's anecdote regarding a yoga class he attended (and 'won') comes to mind (I heard this on his Creative Live presentation).  He went on to cite Buckminster Fuller's notion of 'mutual accommodation' in respect to formalised systems of movement.  If I've understood this correctly, all correct systems are integrated and competence in one should offer some carry over to another, they shouldn't clash (Olympic lifting competency transferring to a yoga class, in Starrett's example).

As Alistair suggests above, I'd like to think that a practise of mindful movement of whatever flavour (a TGU, a kata, a yoga sequence, a trail run) can be seamlessly integrated into a principle based system, such as StrongFirst.  In my opinion, Gray Cook's notion of 'self-limiting exercise' fits in with this too.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom