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Old Forum LCCJ For grapplers

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LoganMurphy

LoganMurphy

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Just was wondering, any of you BJJers out there, what do you prefer to supplement your grappling? High rep sets with a light weight, or heavy weights for fewer reps for the double  LCCJ? I see benefit in doing both, but would love to hear what you guys have to say on the topic.
 
Logan, if you enjoy doing double LCCJ and really want to stick with them, then please don’t let me stop you. But, if you are using it simply as a conditioning tool for Jiu Jitsu I think there are options available that are both less technically demanding and don’t require as much shoulder mobility.

Personally, for my KB quick lifts, I typically do one arm swings, snatches, and will occasionally throw in two handed swings or double swings. I get clean practice in during front squats or military press. I use a single KB much more often than I do doubles – I like the asymmetrical load and find it carries over well for me.

If you want more input on someone who has gone through some rigorous protocols with double LCCJ and can tell you how it applied to his Jiu Jitsu, maybe Hector Gutierrez can chime in?
 
I'm more or less with Tony, I've heard some tout lccj, but as a grappler who works with grapplers, it's rarely my choice. Honestly, S&S is by far the best program I've seen for most grapplers, possibly but not necessarily with a bit extra or a tiny tweak from a knowledgeable coach depending on the individual.

People vastly underestimate the value of strength training, and vastly overestimate the value of conditioning. And of course, there is no substitute for mat time and drilling; that must be prioritized if someone is really serious about getting better at grappling.
 
Hey Tony, thanks for the comment! As far as conditioning goes, I'm already better conditioned and stronger than 90% of the guys I roll, what I'm really focused on is working technique and getting in as much mat time as possible. I love lifting, in fact I'm pretty prone to pushing myself to the extent of overtraining, I don't, but just because I'm very conscious of it. What I really want is a huge bang for your buck  exercise that I can do 2-3 times a week and mobility isn't an issue, in fact I'm freakishly mobile and flexible. I see what you're saying about the ballistics, and single bell work, though I've been a fan of doubles lately as I feel they free up my time a bit(have to be careful recovery wise for grappling though). So, I guess, if you had one lift you trained alongside grappling, what would it be and how would you program it, if I may ask?

 

Jason, thanks for coming in. Honestly, I've heard similar claims about the LCCJ and thats what got me thinking along these lines. I did a pretty long stint of s&s a while back, but progress stared slowing as I don't have a beast for get ups. Maybe Christmas will bring one. So I eventually got doubles mode(I've got a pair of 16/24/32 bells) and have been happy with them, but I always like to hear input from others, as I'm far from the most experienced guy on here. Just to be clear, I'm not looking for a shortcut to success, just ideas for bang for your buck approaches to s&c to get the most out of the time I put in. Thanks man!
 
Logan,

Many people use alternating two week blocks of barbell DL and BP (Power to the People style) with two week blocks of PM/SS.  I think this is a great option, and highly encourage people to give it a shot.

I don't think you could pin it down to a "single best" exercise, nor do you need to.  If you score fairly well in the TSC, that is probably plenty of S&C development.  Just be sure to couple it with plenty of mat time.  If anything jumps out as a glaring weakness in your TSC score, address that.
 
Again, I'm going to agree with Tony. Those are all very solid ideas. Imho, you get a huge bang for the buck from mastering the basics. You already know what these are, just need to stick with them.
 
Thanks a lot guys, what y'all are saying makes a lot of sense, I guess you can only simplify things so much, eh? What are y'all's current lifting routines like, if you don't mind me asking?

Still interested to hear what anyone else  has to say, so chime in please if you have an opinion.
 
Hey Logan! I a competitive BJJer as well. you sound strong and conditioned which is good. I am as well. I think for bjj there a point of diminishing returns on strength training.  for example my ultra heavy weight friend does a program I used to do. 5/3/1 powerlifting. I did well with this program until I surpassed a 2xbw deadlift and a 1.5xbw bench press. After that I felt that the extra load wore me down and didn't benefit my game Any more. My friend can bench 375. but his jiujitsu is no different than when he benched 315. See what I'm saying . So...

now were strong... What next. Enter the kettlebell lol.  We find what strength exercises suit our game. I never advocate high reps for bjj. Strong first. Use live rolling for conditioning.

my friend is a smash machine so bench press and deadlifts suit him well. I am a guard player, so I'm finding a huge benefit from heavy kb swings And heavy TGU. The swings give my explosive hip power and grip stremgth for my guard. The TGU give the strength to stand up and posture up under weight. S&S is the perfect program for my game. The only thing I add is 100-150 pullups and dips a week. Just because I like to do them.

Everyones body and grappling game are different so your plan Must be custom. As far as a one plan fits all, I believe most would benefit from  S&S. If you were a takedown guy I would say add sled drags or prowler pushes for power out of the hole.

hope this helped. what type of game do you play?
 
Hey Ryan! Thanks for chiminonion! Your numbers on the DL and BP sound great for what you need, heck your not competing in PL, so sounds like you made a good choice of switching over to kettlebells!

I too play from guard a lot, though I liked to remain fluid. We've got some BIG guys like your friend the Incredible Hulk, and I have found that heavy double cleans have had carry over to the explosive hips I need to escape their mounts(not fun). I jut ran a cycle of KBS, loved the program for its efficiency(only did the C&P), but at the end, it started to wear on my shoulders recovery-wise since I roll a lot on top of it. That's  why I was thinking the Long Cycle C&J would be good, because I still get those cleans in, and I give my shoulders a little bit of a break. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's as simple as s&s.

By the way, it was this article that got me thinking about the LCCJ. Any thoughts?

http://breakingmuscle.com/kettlebells/adding-muscle-kettlebells-how-i-build-my-grapplers
 
I love S & S for myself and my Jiu-Jitsu athletes.  It's simple and fast.  The movements are functionally applicable.  The corrective/mobility elements are built into the exercises.  There are no extreme ranges of motion to further irritate joints that are already being stretched and cranked on.  I could go on and on about the benefits of it for grapplers.  I also encourage my guys to work in pull-ups as well.  Some work the Fighter's Pull-up program while others are doing lower rep sets of weighted pull-ups.  I'm absolutely not a fan of heavy overhead presses or ballistic movements overhead for combat athletes.  I know this is probably not a popular opinion among our SF community.  However,  our shoulders take an absolute beating.  There is no offseason and it's a lifetime activity.  Most of us assume we will be grappling in our older years.
 
Josh, I can't speak for the entire SF community, but if you think about the idea that "strength serves a greater purpose" then it makes perfect sense to avoid something that will take away from someone's health and performance. If in your practice you have found that heavy overhead presses or ballistic movements overhead aren't good for combat athletes, then you have to go with your conscience and do what's right by those who you train. While you may find some disagreement from others with a different experience and perspective, I don't believe that the idea of going heavy overhead, when applied to grapplers, is that popular. Good health is most important and I think we can all agree that anything that doesn't suit that aim can be discarded. I wish that I had trained like I do now 20 years ago. It would have saved me some wear and tear from doing the newest bodybuilding mag workout.
 
Dang, I guess y'all showed me! Back to S&S it is, I'll save the doubles work for the occasional test as Pavel lays out in the book. Honestly, the getup is so ridiculously applicable to grappling, I really do need to get it worked back in!
 
Logan I read that article. It's a good read. I can see the value of the clean and press.  One question, and I'm not trying to be a smarty pants.. The article is based on pushing athletes up a weight class. If you are stronger and more conditioned than most of the guys you roll with, what would be the benefit to going up a class?

I believe personally whats important for bjj is relative strength. I'm a 215  lb 'er and I have more trouble with a lighter guy with high relative strength than a bigger guy. It's actually taken me years to deprogram myself from equating strength gaining with size gaining.
 
I should've seen this one coming Ryan, and I'm NOT looking to gain weight, but was thinking more along the lines of running a strength based program utilizing the LCCJ. Anyway, thanks for weighing in and I guess I know what I need to do. Just got to do it!
 
Personally after years of trying a number of varying prep ideas for BJJ and grappling competitions I keep coming back to 1 Arm Swings, Getups and Double Front Squats (Goblets if you are not proficient with double bells yet).

Oddly enough I have found some martial artists I train that are more striking oriented benefit better from the LCCJ but I only have a few that have that form down solid to where I feel comfortable with them using it.
 
Thanks for that input Mike, and everyone else!

Just did my first session back to S&S, and I feel amazing. I had previously using ed up to 40 kg for GU and 32 for 1HSW but decided not to be a stubborn idiot and start from that point again, as the whole point of doing this program is to build strength and power while facilitating recovery for grappling. So I used the 16kg for the warmups and GU, and 24 for 1HSW. The Getups felt ridiculously light and easy, and oddly enough, I'm okay with that. Gonna add in the 24 slowly at first, and then the 32 but no rush. I mean ii could easily meet the simple goals for GU, but what's the point? I think my shoulders will appreciate my decision. Going back to the 24k for SW was a no brainer though...honestly, I was a little scared of them as I hadn't done any swings in a while. So I took my time with them and cheeked my stopwatch just for grins, and completed them all in just over 5 min, without feeling wiped! That's victory in my book! The whole session took under 20 min and woke me up better than a cup of coffee! The only place I deviated from the plan(sorry Pavel) was by adding gi pullups to the end of my session after a 10 min break(I did the 3RM FPP though I can easily do 10 reps).

All in all, I feel amazing, and while I'll probably experiment with blocks of PTTP and S&S in the future, I'm content to stick with s&s until I own the 40kg for both movements, and beyond if I get a beast for Christmas(fingers crossed)!

So thanks for talking sense into me guys, sometimes being far from the biggest guy in my gym I get over zealous with heavy lifting in a misguided attempt to "catch up". I'll keep y'all updated with my progress and thank again!

Logan
 
Hi, Logan.  Just because I didn't see anyone already post this one for your consideration (http://www.strongfirst.com/just-give-me-10-minutes-and-i-will-make-you-a-man-the-ultimate-kettlebell-exercise-for-the-standup-fighter/),  I'll pass it along.

I sympathize since I also am a huge fan of the double LCC&J, but then again, I'm not a competitive fighter so I don't have to worry about the same kinds of things you do--weight gain, overtraining the wrong stuff, etc.  Maybe this article can be a good compromise.
 
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