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Kettlebell Lockout in the snatch (Q&D)

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I feel the heavier the kettlebell gets in relation to your own bodyweight the more squatty your swing/clean/snatch have to get.
And for me that makes perfect sense, because you can only "tame the arc" (which is guiding the bell along the desired path, i.e applying force) so much, before you pull your own center of gravity too far forward and loose your balance.
So in order to stay on your feet you

1) cannot push the bell too far forward, so you'll have to apply the force more vertical (either squat or lean back (GS-technique(look at the angle of their "hip-thrust")))

2) have to either squat or rotate your torso to prevent the bell from flying back and down or making you tumble backwards

Swing a bell above bodyweight to chest height and you'll know what I mean ;-)

Just my 2ct
 
In my experience, the more I tame the arch and lean backwards to let the bell drop vertically, the more squatty my hinge becomes.

@Anna C @Steve W. What are your thoughts on this?
And as far as I can see a lot of strong folks around here emphasize the athletic hinge (with a little bit more knee bend), even in swings. Looks more like jumping motion than a Good Morning.
I have a lot of thoughts about this, but I'll try to stick to the big picture and not get (too) lost in the technical details:

GS vs Hard Style:
To me, THE biggest difference between GS and Hard Style is the straight Hard Style hinge vs the GS pendulum. Hard Style uses a straight flexion and extension rhythm to the hinge. GS uses a scooping double kneebend, where the knees straighten at the end of the downswing and rebend on the upswing. I just think of the difference in those technical terms --not in terms of intention ("one emphasizes power, one emphasizes efficiency"), but in terms of technique ("one does THIS, and one does THAT").

Hinge vs Squat:
I think people often go overboard in minimizing knee bend in the Hard Style hinge and take "it's a hinge, not a squat" too literally and absolutely. Hinge and squat are not really opposites. They are different variations of coordinated knee, hip and ankle flexion and extension. IMO, a good hinge is going to include knee flexion and downward displacement of the hips, and that does not turn it into a squat. The difference is that the focus of the hinge pattern is sitting back (butt moving behind the feet, as in the touch-the-wall drill) and the focus of the squat pattern is sitting down (butt moving down between the feet, going "a$$ to grass"). But the hips still move down AND back in both patterns.

[Notice I added the word "pattern" to the previous sentence to distinguish a more pure squat pattern from the low bar powerlifting style squat TECHNIQUE, which is actually more of a hinge PATTERN.]

A hinge is also going to stay shoulder above hip/ hips above knees, whereas a squat can/should/usually does break parallel.

Lighter vs Heavier Weight:
I don't think in terms of the hinge getting "squattier" with a heavy weight, but it does tend to get shallower (by which I mean the hips don't move back as far), just to maintain balance of the bell/lifter system. The knees will also tend to move forward more with a heavy weight, but I also don't think of this as being "squattier," since it's not about dropping the hips down as much as just keeping the center of mass over the base of support.

Snatch vs Swing:
The more vertical trajectory of the Hard Style snatch does affect the geometry of the hinge, but I don't consider it more "squatty."

Two things I strive for in my snatch form are pulling the elbow in tight on the drop to connect the upper arm to the torso, but also making space to sweep the bell into a nice backswing.

If you just drop the bell straight down, it's hard to sweep it into the backswing and you just have to catch it vertically at the bottom (which can lead to some squattiness in "riding the bell down" to absorb the force of the drop). So I do bend the knees a bit on the drop and sit/lean back to make space between the bell and my body.

I think of it as snatching "through the rack" and imagine dropping the bell into the rack and then dropping it from there into the backswing, as in the drop of a clean from the rack. Of course I don't actually catch the bell in the rack like in a "half snatch," but it's a visualization I use. Basically, I am shortening the radius of arc on the downswing from full arm's length in a swing to forearm's length (elbow in tight to body) in the snatch. That still give good leverage to sweep the bell in an arc into the backswing.

To the OP's original question, of course you catch and fixate the bell at the top of the snatch (none of this bottoms up, bell flying around the hand stuff). This has nothing to do with how powerfully you drive the bell up, it's just a matter of basic technique. Pick the heaviest weight you can complete 5 series with, without killing yourself, and without having to slow your cadence too much (cadence is largely determined by how long you pause in the lockout overhead, so if you HAVE to pause for more than a second in the lockout, the bell is too heavy). Over time, add/increase your aggressiveness with overspeed eccentrics as you are able. If you are just pausing for a momentary motionless fixation overhead, your actual cadence will not change much at all even with more aggressive overspeed eccentrics, so there's little point to chasing a faster cadence.

And lose the gymnastics grips.
 
In hardstyle we attempt to tame the arch, and the bell travels very close to the body. As the path is mostly vertical, up and down, the hinge becomes more vertical as well, therefore more squatty...

...In my experience, the more I tame the arch and lean backwards to let the bell drop vertically, the more squatty my hinge becomes.

Taming the arc: the torso is deflected backwards, the arm is straight until the elbow touches the trunk. At the same time you get onto your tip toes to meet the elbow. After that the bell is automatically redirected backwards. This was the bell is dropped almost vertically, but there is still enough momentum to keep it swinging. The guy in the video is Sergej Rudnev, around 60 kg at the time.



Look, guys, I don't have a beef in this. I am not a girevik and I don't care about the purity of any style. But I would rather snatch like Markov in the videos that I posted rather than those two folks whose technique is considered perfect by your style.
 
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I have a lot of thoughts about this, but I'll try to stick to the big picture and not get (too) lost in the technical details:

GS vs Hard Style:
To me, THE biggest difference between GS and Hard Style is the straight Hard Style hinge vs the GS pendulum. Hard Style uses a straight flexion and extension rhythm to the hinge. GS uses a scooping double kneebend, where the knees straighten at the end of the downswing and rebend on the upswing. I just think of the difference in those technical terms --not in terms of intention ("one emphasizes power, one emphasizes efficiency"), but in terms of technique ("one does THIS, and one does THAT").

Hinge vs Squat:
I think people often go overboard in minimizing knee bend in the Hard Style hinge and take "it's a hinge, not a squat" too literally and absolutely. Hinge and squat are not really opposites. They are different variations of coordinated knee, hip and ankle flexion and extension. IMO, a good hinge is going to include knee flexion and downward displacement of the hips, and that does not turn it into a squat. The difference is that the focus of the hinge pattern is sitting back (butt moving behind the feet, as in the touch-the-wall drill) and the focus of the squat pattern is sitting down (butt moving down between the feet, going "a$$ to grass"). But the hips still move down AND back in both patterns.

[Notice I added the word "pattern" to the previous sentence to distinguish a more pure squat pattern from the low bar powerlifting style squat TECHNIQUE, which is actually more of a hinge PATTERN.]

A hinge is also going to stay shoulder above hip/ hips above knees, whereas a squat can/should/usually does break parallel.

Lighter vs Heavier Weight:
I don't think in terms of the hinge getting "squattier" with a heavy weight, but it does tend to get shallower (by which I mean the hips don't move back as far), just to maintain balance of the bell/lifter system. The knees will also tend to move forward more with a heavy weight, but I also don't think of this as being "squattier," since it's not about dropping the hips down as much as just keeping the center of mass over the base of support.

Snatch vs Swing:
The more vertical trajectory of the Hard Style snatch does affect the geometry of the hinge, but I don't consider it more "squatty."

Two things I strive for in my snatch form are pulling the elbow in tight on the drop to connect the upper arm to the torso, but also making space to sweep the bell into a nice backswing.

If you just drop the bell straight down, it's hard to sweep it into the backswing and you just have to catch it vertically at the bottom (which can lead to some squattiness in "riding the bell down" to absorb the force of the drop). So I do bend the knees a bit on the drop and sit/lean back to make space between the bell and my body.

I think of it as snatching "through the rack" and imagine dropping the bell into the rack and then dropping it from there into the backswing, as in the drop of a clean from the rack. Of course I don't actually catch the bell in the rack like in a "half snatch," but it's a visualization I use. Basically, I am shortening the radius of arc on the downswing from full arm's length in a swing to forearm's length (elbow in tight to body) in the snatch. That still give good leverage to sweep the bell in an arc into the backswing.

To the OP's original question, of course you catch and fixate the bell at the top of the snatch (none of this bottoms up, bell flying around the hand stuff). This has nothing to do with how powerfully you drive the bell up, it's just a matter of basic technique. Pick the heaviest weight you can complete 5 series with, without killing yourself, and without having to slow your cadence too much (cadence is largely determined by how long you pause in the lockout overhead, so if you HAVE to pause for more than a second in the lockout, the bell is too heavy). Over time, add/increase your aggressiveness with overspeed eccentrics as you are able. If you are just pausing for a momentary motionless fixation overhead, your actual cadence will not change much at all even with more aggressive overspeed eccentrics, so there's little point to chasing a faster cadence.

And lose the gymnastics grips.


Taming the arc: the torso is deflected backwards, the arm is straight until the elbow touches the trunk. At the same time you get onto your tip toes to meet the elbow. After that the bell is automatically redirected backwards. This was the bell is dropped almost vertically, but there is still enough momentum to keep it swinging. The guy in the video is Sergej Rudnev, around 60 kg at the time.



Look, guys, I don't have a beef in this. I am not a girevik and I don't care about the purity of any style. But I would rather snatch like Markov in the videos that I posted rather than those two folks whose technique is considered perfect by your style.


@Van Der Merve
Is this addressed to me (you quoted my post above)?

My post was not directed at you. I quoted and was responding to comments by @Oscar and @Bauer, and I have expressed no opinion about "those two folks" whose technique you find lacking.
 
The first part was meant to comment/add to this paragraph of your post:
The more vertical trajectory of the Hard Style snatch does affect the geometry of the hinge, but I don't consider it more "squatty."

I just got lazy and didn't delete the rest.

The last paragraph was addressed to others.
 
The first part was meant to comment/add to this paragraph of your post:
The more vertical trajectory of the Hard Style snatch does affect the geometry of the hinge, but I don't consider it more "squatty."

I just got lazy and didn't delete the rest.

The last paragraph was addressed to others.

But that line was addressing the trajectory of the Hard Style snatch vs the swing (it was under the heading "Snatch vs Swing") and was responding to some previous comments by other posters. How does this relate to your description and the video of Rudnev?
 
Look, guys, I don't have a beef in this. I am not a girevik and I don't care about the purity of any style. But I would rather snatch like Markov in the videos that I posted rather than those two folks whose technique is considered perfect by your style.

That's cool... Most of us aren't style purists either, but it's helpful to distinguish what is ideal or correct for a given style, so newbies don't get confused. But yeah, those GS athletes are awesome. As @Brett Jones says, "Put simply—it's just not what we do but that doesn't mean we don't respect it."
 
But that line was addressing the trajectory of the Hard Style snatch vs the swing (it was under the heading "Snatch vs Swing") and was responding to some previous comments by other posters. How does this relate to your description and the video of Rudnev?

I fixed the post in question.
 
I tried Q&D yesterday and I like it a lot, but still I can't quite understand how the snatch-lockout is ought to be performed
As far as I am concerned you should go as fast as possible with a complete lockout at the top,
so I threw the bell up and down like a mad man. Now the following question arises:

Are we supposed to really catch the snatch at the top or just throw it up and then pull it back down when the elbow is straight and everything is motionless for a split second?


As I used gymnastics grips for the first time I can't really tell if I caught the bell in a bottoms-up position for a couple of reps, but I definitively had that thing motionless without it touching my forearm.
How am I supposed to snatch maximally explosive without having that happen?
I know it may sound stupid to someone who knows what he's talking about, but I'm confused
Q&D snatches aren't intended for someone who doesn't already know how to perform a kettlebell snatch and I'd go further than that - it's not intended for someone who hasn't performed hundreds of snatch reps already, and thousands of snatch reps would be better.

Please don't use gymnastic grips in your kettlebell training.

-S-
 
But I would rather snatch like Markov in the videos that I posted rather than those two folks whose technique is considered perfect by your style.
Then please take your discussion elsewhere. The purpose of our forum is to help people learn and practice StrongFirst's methods.

-S-
 
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