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Other/Mixed Long muscle length training

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
Regarding overcoming isos: once you adjust to them, does it seem like the recovery demands seem lower than you would think for giving an "all out" effort with them? Just from reading all the forum posts about them, it seems kind of like that? If so, that is interesting, because it suggests either that for some reason you can recover from all-out efforts pretty well, or it suggests that somehow the stress on the body from the overcoming isos is somehow less than other forms of training. I think the idea is that there's no lengthening/eccentric movement, yes?

@North Coast Miller have you tried using the crane scale? It always sounds like a good idea in theory but I haven't really come across people using them this way.
 
bluejeff said:
Regarding overcoming isos: once you adjust to them, does it seem like the recovery demands seem lower than you would think for giving an "all out" effort with them? Just from reading all the forum posts about them, it seems kind of like that? If so, that is interesting, because it suggests either that for some reason you can recover from all-out efforts pretty well, or it suggests that somehow the stress on the body from the overcoming isos is somehow less than other forms of training. I think the idea is that there's no lengthening/eccentric movement, yes?

@North Coast Miller have you tried using the crane scale? It always sounds like a good idea in theory but I haven't really come across people using them this way.
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My experience - once the joints season in a bit the recovery is about the same as traditional work at 80% or so. The metabolic stress is a lot less, as is fuel consumption ( I don't know this for a fact, this is based on amount of sweat, caloric needs, some research demonstrating reduced oxidative activity etc). Mental intensity is higher...

The biggest factor is to adopt breathing patterns that mimic regular lifting. Extended iso exertion under full Valsalva is very hard on the CNS and CV system out of all proportion to muscular adaptive response.

I do use the crane scale from time to time. To me, it is similar to a HR monitor for HIIT. Once you benchmark your effort/RPE to a given HR, you really don't need to use it all the time.
Now if I were training to specifically improve holding force at X timestamp or fastest ramp up with a power shot, I might use it more often. Due to differences in angle of attack and posture, it isn't a very good 1:1 indicator of dynamic strength on traditional lifts. I kill myself to generate force numbers close to what I rep a dozen times on bench press, quad extensions clocked in at nearly 250lbs. Yet a weight hung from the scale is dead on - the values are for reference unless very strict mechanics are used.

Edit to add: at some point I may use it for longer duration submax work. In that case it would be pretty important to every session.
 
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GreenSoup said:
It doesn't seem like there can any periodization of lower loads with overcoming isometrics. Push to the max at one angle for one block...
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Isometric Periodization

Let's look at Functional Isometric Training that is employed with Training Loads, which is what I utilize.

Here is how my Isometric Periodization Warm Up are performed.

Warm Up Protocol

With each set the load is increased as well as the amount Intensity of the Isometric Action.

As each set increases in Loading, the amount of Isometric Tension once it hit the Upper Pin, increases it in order to keep the bar pressed into the Pins.

This method can be employed with a Non-Loaded Isometric. However, I have found Functional Isometrics mandates an increase of of Isometric Action Intensity as the Loading Increases.

The Periodization Training Cycle

This involves Progressively Loading with Heavier Loads with Functional Isometric Sets; as it does with Traditional Strength Training

Think of a Periodization Training Cycles like Warm Up.

Each week of a Periodization Training Cycle is a Warm Up for the following week.

The training objective is to prepare yourself for your Top Set on that particular Training Day.

The training objective of Periodization Training is to for the Final Week/Top Set in an Exercise; personal record.

This method can be employed with a Non-Loaded Isometric. However, it hard to measure.

However, one of the simplest method of measuring Isometric Force Production is with a...

Crain Scale

North Coast Miller mentioned using one.

This information was previously posted on this forum on using a Crane Scale to measure Isometric Force Production.

Maximizing Isometrics

Other/Mixed - Programing Isometrics

So after this last Tactical Games, and looking forward to another one in August, I wanted to run a 6-8 week cycle where I focus 4 days per week on absolute strength and just getting strong, and then go back into my usual minimalist strength and heavy conditioning type thing. I had originally...
www.strongfirst.com

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Isometric Training Protocols: Exploring Variables Periodization and Training Recommendations
https://ijrpr.com/uploads/V4ISSUE5/IJRPR13664.pdf

This provide some good overall information, as well.

By manipulating variables such as intensity, duration, frequency, and contraction types, individuals can customize their training programs to suit their goals and fitness levels. Implementing a progressive overload strategy, incorporating variation in exercises and angles, and allowing for adequate rest and recovery are key factors in maximizing the benefits of isometric training.
 
I'm curious about the crane scale. How would one set it up and use it to measure different points in some classic lifts? Is it typical that you can lock it to measure a specific distance? Or does it only work at full extension? I suppose you could hook it to straps that are hooked to a barbell or a pulley handle and subtract the weight of the handle or the barbell.
 
Antti said:
How would one compare training the overcoming isometrics to simply lifting to failure?

Let's take an athlete who competes in the deadlift and has a sticking point at the knees, a typical issue. He gets the bar off the ground very easily but stalls at the knee.

Now, he could load the bar a little over his 1RM, and do deadlift singles so that the bar stalls at the knees and he stays there for 3-6 seconds each time, trying maximally to pass the sticking point.

Is this overcoming isometrics training or not? What would the differences be between the two if not?

In general, training like this seems to be extremely frowned upon due to recovery issues and some also see a greater injury risk. Is this general notion untrue and how would the overcoming isometrics be different?
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I don't train to failure when doing overcoming isometrics for strength. I've done it to failure when training under a hypertrophy protocol.

BTW, if your deadlifter wants to use a barbell with overcoming isometrics as Bob Hoffman had his guys train, the bar would be set up in a rack for partial, not full range, deadlift. Also, when he does the partial deadlift, he is to hold the weight for the prescribed number of seconds, whether it's 6, 10, or whatever. That is what would make the exercise an overcoming isometric and not a dynamic 1RM attempt. Kenny and Miller explain this better than me.

When doing OI for strength, I test for 1-rep max force, then train at 70% of 1-rep max. Here I am not going to failure, but just trying to apply as much force as possible - the minimum force being 70% 1RM - during a 6-second hold. The time should be too short to achieve failure.

When doing OI for hypertrophy, I try to apply force for at least 20 seconds, and try to apply enough force to fatigue the targeted muscles within a 20-45 second window. Force in this scenario is well below 70% 1RM - more like 60% or even as low as 45% depending on the exercise - low squat/lunge positions in particular are taxing so force output is lower. This bodybuilder mentioned isometric holds of as long as 5 min but I haven't tried holds longer than 2 min. Anyway, there are multiple ways to do OI for hypertrophy - North Coast Miller's way is yet another way.

I use an IsoMax which has a built-in force dynamometer. However one can substitute a crane scale or other force measurement device, then rig some sort of camera to record the display of said device.
 
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Antti said:
Now, he could load the bar a little over his 1RM, and do deadlift singles so that the bar stalls at the knees and he stays there for 3-6 seconds each time, trying maximally to pass the sticking point.

Is this overcoming isometrics training or not? What would the differences be between the two if not?
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Note that it is an overcoming isometric for as long as it stays at the sticking point and becomes an overloaded eccentric after that point. The biggest difference is that a fixed empty bar can just be dropped while a fully loaded, partially lifted barbell also deals with the part of lifting that is most likely to cause muscle damage, the eccentric strain.

Might that be good for hypertrophy if done safely with appropriate volume? Maybe. I can't say it is absolutely a wrong approach.
 
I would like a crane scale connected to a monitor so I could see the exact poundage in action as I use it. It sounds cool to use a 70% 1RM if desired with advanced equipment like the IsoMax, or just to see how things are going on a set by set basis with every isometric lift. I'm not sure how perfectly the IsoMax could be read with some exercises like squatting so the separate monitor would be handy. Has anyone seen something like that?
 
GreenSoup said:
I would like a crane scale connected to a monitor so I could see the exact poundage in action as I use it. It sounds cool to use a 70% 1RM if desired with advanced equipment like the IsoMax, or just to see how things are going on a set by set basis with every isometric lift. I'm not sure how perfectly the IsoMax could be read with some exercises like squatting so the separate monitor would be handy. Has anyone seen something like that?
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I made one with some extra wire and two $30 scales off of amazon. Wired the display from one to the strain gauge in the other, hang the display anywhere.

There are other options out there fairly cheap if you just need a remote display and no fancy features.
 
I don't actually look at my IsoMax in the middle of a high intensity hold. I set it to a target force (lbs or kg). When the force I apply reaches the target, the IsoMax starts beeping, so that's how I know my rep has started. If my force drops below the target, the beeping stops. Just about all my attention is focused on making sure the body is lined up for safe and effective application of force, and making sure none of the targeted muscles are slacking off.

I look at it afterwards to see what my max force reading was for that rep. I usually just record the last rep into my training log though, since the max force goes up and down from rep to rep.
 
GreenSoup said:
I would like a crane scale connected to a monitor so I could see the exact poundage in action as I use it. It sounds cool to use a 70% 1RM if desired with advanced equipment like the IsoMax, or just to see how things are going on a set by set basis with every isometric lift. I'm not sure how perfectly the IsoMax could be read with some exercises like squatting so the separate monitor would be handy. Has anyone seen something like that?
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This thing looks pretty cool, there are some YT review videos that demo the app features. 200kg limit, so if you use a rig like mine that gives a 400kg working indication.

Progressor 200 Rechargeable – tindeq

tindeq.com tindeq.com
 
GovernorSilver said:
I don't actually look at my IsoMax in the middle of a high intensity hold. I set it to a target force (lbs or kg). When the force I apply reaches the target, the IsoMax starts beeping, so that's how I know my rep has started. If my force drops below the target, the beeping stops. Just about all my attention is focused on making sure the body is lined up for safe and effective application of force, and making sure none of the targeted muscles are slacking off.

I look at it afterwards to see what my max force reading was for that rep. I usually just record the last rep into my training log though, since the max force goes up and down from rep to rep.
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How do you set up the IsoMax for different ranges of motion in an exercise?
 
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