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Other/Mixed Longevity and Ballistics

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Adam R Mundorf

Adam R Mundorf

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Hello Everybody,

I understand that as a person ages they lose the bounce in their step if they don't work to maintain it. Oftentimes swings are recommended to keep people athletic or bouncy into older age.

My concern is that when performing ballistics, specifically the swing, you pretty much lock your hips out repeatedly and pull your knee caps up forcefully. I know your squeezing the glutes but are our hip joints truly designed to lock out that forcefully over and over again? Are our knee caps meant to be pulled up repeatedly? Are we meant to be explosively hingeing that often?

Using S&S rep numbers you're locking your hips and pulling your knee caps up : 700 times a week. The swing is often compared to a standing jump but even if someone's jumping form was impeccable, I don't think they'd be jumping 700 times a week.

Thank you, Adam
 
I personally think it’s a moot point. The stress on the knee joint during the swing is next to nothing when compared to the impact with jogging and running, but those activities come highly recommended even as we age.

You could also ask the question is the knee meant to undergo so many repetitive bends without getting full knee extension during bicycling? By not using the quads to their fullest extent? Yet it’s still recommended as we age.

swings strengthen the gluteals. Strong gluteals improves hip health. Strong hips improve knee stability.
 
Adam R Mundorf said:
Hello Everybody,

I understand that as a person ages they lose the bounce in their step if they don't work to maintain it. Oftentimes swings are recommended to keep people athletic or bouncy into older age.

My concern is that when performing ballistics, specifically the swing, you pretty much lock your hips out repeatedly and pull your knee caps up forcefully. I know your squeezing the glutes but are our hip joints truly designed to lock out that forcefully over and over again? Are our knee caps meant to be pulled up repeatedly? Are we meant to be explosively hingeing that often?

Using S&S rep numbers you're locking your hips and pulling your knee caps up : 700 times a week. The swing is often compared to a standing jump but even if someone's jumping form was impeccable, I don't think they'd be jumping 700 times a week.

Thank you, Adam
Click to expand...
Let's compare it to something that as humans we are designed to do. Running. We are the premier endurance species on the planet. No animal comes close to achieving the endurance feats of the top humans.

Is the stress from swings going to compare to that of running? If you are worried about the stress on the knees then get some resistance band and do some banded leg curls to balance out the knee joint.

Worked wonders for my knee pain from years of running.
 
I have never experienced any knee problems from Swings.
That being said, I never plan too much of the same movement in my weekly training.

Swings are a great assisting movement like jumping, running and counter balance all the chair sitting we do . Personally I prefer to do a mix of different hinge movements rather than swings alone.So I switch between Swings, Broad jumps, Kettlebell deadlifts , Cleans and Snatches.

For me a weekly dose of 100 - 300 reps of the ballistic movements , 30- 40 reps of the broad jumps and 20 - 40 slow controlled KB deadlifts is more than enough hinging.

I believe humans were primarily designed to walk, jump and throw .Then other forms of locomotion ; crawl, run, climb, carry and swim. We could add dancing and wrestling as third expression of our movement design. Except for dancing I try to do mix in all these movements in my workouts.
 
Adam R Mundorf said:
I understand that as a person ages they lose the bounce in their step if they don't work to maintain it.
Click to expand...
Losing The Bounce

As individual age, there is a decrease in muscle mass, as we know. The decrease in muscle mass is primarily in the Type II, Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

"This aging atrophy seems to be due to a reduction in both number and size of muscle fibers, mainly of type 2..."
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Human aging, muscle mass, and fiber type composition - PubMed

To assess the age-related loss of muscle mass and to determine the mechanisms behind this aging atrophy, the muscle structure and fiber type composition have been estimated, using invasive and noninvasive techniques. Limb muscles from older men and women are 25-35% smaller and have significantly...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Use It Or Lose It

The loss of Fast Twitch in part has to do with aging. It also is due to the fact the older individual do not perform exercises that innervate/work and develop, let alone maintain the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Older Special Populations

A friend of mine (Tom Morris, MS Exercise) is a specialist in working with the Special Population, Seniors Group.

Morris' exercise protocol for Seniors involves having them preform Plyometrics in order to maintain Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber, as well as Strength Training.

Plyometric For Seniors

As per Morris, Plyometric Training for Senior is not quite the same as it is for younger individuals.

Morris Seniors Plyometric Training program involves jumps. Jumping for Senior may only mean their feet slightly come off the ground or that they essentially become a little lighter on their feet; compared to a younger individual becoming airborne.

However, the "Intent" for Seniors to jump, innervates, develops and maintain (to some degree) the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Senior Falling

Part of the issue with Senior falling is a balance issue.

A secondary issue, is the loss of Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber; which would allow them to quickly respond to falling.

Adam R Mundorf said:
My concern is that when performing ballistics, specifically the swing, you pretty much lock your hips out repeatedly and pull your knee caps up forcefully. Are we meant to be explosively hingeing that often?
Click to expand...

Kettlebell Swings

There is much impact force in the top part of a Kettlebell Swing; the Kettlebell is floating up, decelerating.

The Eccentric Part Of The Kettlebell Swing

The force encountered is in the Eccentric Component.

As per Brett Jones post, "Specific to the loaded eccentric position—on a force plate I absorb and have to redirect 3-3.5x BW eccentric load in a two-hand swing with a 24kg KB." PUSH Bands, Knee Injuries, and...Boink? | StrongFirst

Developing The Stretch Reflex

One of the primary components that is required for producing Power is the Stretch Reflex. Research has demonstrated that up to 18% more Power is produced when the Stretch Reflex is elicited, due to the "Bounce" (as you put it) or the recoil.

The only way to develop the Stretch Reflex is by training it.

JamesPTA said:
The stress on the knee joint during the swing is next to nothing when compared to the impact with jogging and running,
Click to expand...

Walking and Running Impact Force

Great point by James.

Research show the following...

Walking Impart Force: 150% of your body weight. Thus, if someone weighed 200 lbs, each foot fall produces 300 lb of impact force.

Jogging/Running Impact Force: 300% to 500% of your body weight. Thus, if someone weighed 200 lbs, each foot fall produces 600 lb to 1.000 lbs of impact force.

"The Poison Is In The Dose."

As with everything, the right amount of Impact Force is either good. the wrong amount (dose) is not.

One of the benefits is the right amount of impact force it that builds and maintains bone density; that reason for "Weight Bearing" movements.

Too much impact from distance running has been show not be be detrimental

It is like the story of Goldilocks. You are looking for what's just right.
 
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I don't think the swings is a problematic ballistic exercise because there is little impact like there is in jumping and the standing plank doesn't put your body in extreme ranges of motion. Someone can overdo the snapping of the hips and knees, sure. And there probably are people who can not do a proper standing plank without discomfort. But if stretched properly most hips can move farther than they do in the swing and for most people the top of the swing doesn't overextend the knees either.
 
I don’t believe humans are made to run. We are made to walk (loaded or unloaded). We can’t sprint long enough to get away from nearly anything that wants to eat us. But we can follow prey/herd a long time.
 
Sean M said:
I don’t believe humans are made to run. We are made to walk (loaded or unloaded). We can’t sprint long enough to get away from nearly anything that wants to eat us. But we can follow prey/herd a long time.
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I see that stated sometimes and yet, humans in every culture throughout history have always ran. Maybe some more than others but it's something that humans have always done,
 
@Adam R Mundorf
I would say of all ballistics, as shown here the swing is low impact.
The benefits of training fast twitch fiber are huge. I'm a firm believer in it. I don't teach the swing to many seniors (I know your question is not necessarily geared to that) but that's because the large majority of the ones I start with are A) off cardiac surgery and/or B) far away from being ready for that.

My #1 choice power choice, chosen because of ease of use, low impact, low learning curve, etc. is the Medicine Ball.
LB- "Thruster" style, squat and throw the med ball up on a wall, or Overhead Slam
UB - kneeling or seated Chest throws, 2 hand or 1 hand. Work up to standing , and add a rotation when necessary

For young/middle aged and your concern regarding volume... I think the benefits of the swing in terms of emphasizing the posterior chain will far outweigh any knee risk, with the caveat that the swing is performed well.
 
Adam R Mundorf said:
My concern is that when performing ballistics, specifically the swing, you pretty much lock your hips out repeatedly and pull your knee caps up forcefully. I know your squeezing the glutes but are our hip joints truly designed to lock out that forcefully over and over again? Are our knee caps meant to be pulled up repeatedly? Are we meant to be explosively hingeing that often?
Click to expand...
I would like to question some of your assumtions, @Adam R Mundorf.

I'm not sure what "lock your hips out" means. When I swing a kettlebell, I'm not turning my hips under as far as they'll go if that's what you mean by locking out. I find it best to focus on pushing my feet down and trying to make myself taller. I love @Brett Jones' cue about starting with your head touching a glass ceiling and then trying to break the glass on each rep. I know this isn't a maximum motion of my hips.

I'm also not trying to pull up my knee caps - that's something I use a cue when pressing, but not for the swing.

Same thing with glutes - I'm just trying to stand up as tall as possible, and my glutes and abs are doing what they're supposed to from that cue alone. Maximizing glute contraction or ab contraction would lead to turning my hips under maximally but I'm not trying to do any of those things.

Just some thoughts for you.

-S-
 
WhatWouldHulkDo said:
Just my opinion... but, if you were to look at the population of older folks with mobility and locomotion problems, I highly doubt that the majority of them find themselves in that state because they trained too much when they had the chance. I suspect the opposite is the case.
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I imagine that, although a much smaller group, there are those who overdid their training. I know a lot - too many - who’ve had hip or knee replacements.

-S-
 
Adam R Mundorf said:
My concern is that when performing ballistics, specifically the swing, you pretty much lock your hips out repeatedly and pull your knee caps up forcefully. I know your squeezing the glutes but are our hip joints truly designed to lock out that forcefully over and over again? Are our knee caps meant to be pulled up repeatedly? Are we meant to be explosively hingeing that often?
Click to expand...

"Pulling the knee caps up" sounds worse on paper than what is actually happening at the joint. This is just a common cue to stand tall and stay tight as a common movement error with beginners is "scooping" where their knees fall forward during the upward phase of the swing.

Adam R Mundorf said:
Using S&S rep numbers you're locking your hips and pulling your knee caps up : 700 times a week. The swing is often compared to a standing jump but even if someone's jumping form was impeccable, I don't think they'd be jumping 700 times a week.
Click to expand...

I will echo @kennycro@@aol.com comments regarding the importance of "dose". If I was coaching a 28 year old in the best shape of their life, then yes 700 swings a week would be good to go. If it was a 55 year old desk jockey just starting with kettlebell training then their dose would be far less, but they could still absolutely do swings if not contra-indicated.

The swing is compared to jumping for the visualization purposes of a powerful hip hinge only. The actual training effect when performing swings is far easier on the joints than actually jumping, and where the damage really occurs, the landing.
 
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I appreciate all the responses. I guess I just don't want to be 70 and wondering why I'm getting my hips and knees replaced. When all along it was from ballistic exercise or unnecessary exercise choices.
 
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