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Other/Mixed Looking for Push band alternative (VBT device for Kettlebell ballistics)

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

David Szego

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Team, I know that the topic was discussed before, but despite my efforts I haven't yet found a suitable alternative to the discontinued Push band.
I'm looking for a VBT device for primarily Kettlebell ballistics.
Tha ones I came across are either barbell oriented, out of stock for months or tenfold the price.
Many thanks in advance!
 
Team, I know that the topic was discussed before, but despite my efforts I haven't yet found a suitable alternative to the discontinued Push band.
I'm looking for a VBT device for primarily Kettlebell ballistics.
Tha ones I came across are either barbell oriented, out of stock for months or tenfold the price.
Many thanks in advance!
I don't think there is one to be honest. Kettlebell training as a primary modality is already sort of niche and using velocity metrics is extremely niche. I've looked as well because I liked my push band, couldn't find anything.
 
Came across this in a Facebook ad a week or two ago - Output Sports Home Page

Had to dig a bit for price and it's steep - $1000 I believe. Output Sports V2 Sensor. Link says it can't be ordered online at this time, but thought I'd link it anyway. I think the price showed up when I was browsing on my phone, but doesn't show up on my laptop.

There are a bunch of metrics - like 10 different settings, including one recording option specifically for slams and kettlebell swings. I like the goniometer setting too.

Checking their social media, they've been around a few years but seem to be making a push (pun not intended) in the last month.

Would love to get my hands on one someday. I missed out on PUSH. Just too pricey. Ha! And I thought that was expensive!
 
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I just saw an IG ad for one. It didn’t look particularly high quality and I don’t remember the name, but I’m sure good ones are still floating around out there.
 
Team, thank you very much for all the input. Nothing looks as convincing as the push band was, no wonder as our leadership surely advised them on the kettlebell aspects.
Not so surprisingly, I have been targeted by ads on this topic recently.
This just came up on my socials, it might worth looking into, as it's a more accessable price range:
 
Came across this in a Facebook ad a week or two ago - Output Sports Home Page

Had to dig a bit for price and it's steep - $1000 I believe. Output Sports V2 Sensor. Link says it can't be ordered online at this time, but thought I'd link it anyway. I think the price showed up when I was browsing on my phone, but doesn't show up on my laptop.

There are a bunch of metrics - like 10 different settings, including one recording option specifically for slams and kettlebell swings. I like the goniometer setting too.

Checking their social media, they've been around a few years but seem to be making a push (pun not intended) in the last month.

Would love to get my hands on one someday. I missed out on PUSH. Just too pricey. Ha! And I thought that was expensive!
John, thank you very much, this looks like a great device! Unfortunately out of my price range as it would only be for personal use.
 
John, thank you very much, this looks like a great device! Unfortunately out of my price range as it would only be for personal use.
You're very welcome. It would be for my personal too, but maybe I could justify it one day as I am building my coaching clientele.

Not sure on the price honestly. I seem to remember seeing that number. But the fact that it isn't posted plainly anywhere makes me think what I saw was true.

Nice share on the Calibrex! The way we could rip a kettlebell, though, I don't think the magnet would stick! The strap accessory looks ok...
 
This app may be of interest. I used it few years ago to assess my kettlebell swings:

 
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This app may be of interest. I used it few years ago to assess my kettlebell swings:

Thanks,

Never thought of that. Checked on Google play and there are a few android apps as well - downloaded "Physics Toolbox Sensor SUite" - a quick test swinging my arm about proves that it works.

No idea how accurate the numbers will be but will certainly give some numbers to compare one session with another - and new toy for us "app tragics" to play with.

They even have an app to measure horizontal acceleration in racing cars.
 
I have a Beast sensor, but compared it to the Vitruve with grinds, wasn't even close to the same metric. So threw it away...
 

Looking for Push band alternative (VBT device for Kettlebell ..."Swings"

The Push Band looks like an interesting item for measuring Power Output.

"Power Factor"

Years ago, I purchased the Power Factor for the measure Power Output for Tradirtional Barbell Stregth Movcements.

It wasn't as user friendly as the Push Band but it was definitely cheaper.

The Power Factor was equivalent to house scales that provide you with approximately you body weight with some variance.

Essentially, it provide fairly good accuracy in determing the Power Output with certain loads.

Ironically, it substantiated research on the optimal range for Power Output.

With that in mind, let look at that...

Power Trainng Percentages

1) Traditional Barbell Power is optimally developed with load of 46-62% of 1 Repetition Max.

2) Olympic Movements are optimally developed with loads of 70-80% of 1 Repetition Max.

3) Kettlebell Swings


Research indicates that Kettlebell Swing Power Output is developed with loads of one third body weight and higher, nearing body weight.

180 lb Lifter Example


Thus, a lifter performing Power Kettlebell Swing need to employ load of Swngs with a 60 lb Kettlebell or higher.

I have worked up to Kettlebell Swing with a 170 lb Hungarian Core Blaster.

With that in mind, devices that meaure Power Output are a nice tool.

However, all they do is reinforce the reseach that has determined the Training Percengates.

Power Output Training


In trainng with the Power Training Percentages, over time, you learn to get a feel what it is and see it with someone that you are training with.

Power Training in the Lower Percentages Range fall more into the category Speed Strength Power Training; greater speed is developed.

Training at the Higher End of Power Traiing Percentages fall more into the category of Strength Power Training Percentages' greater strength is gained.

Training With Varying Power Percentages

One of the keys in the development of Power is to employ sets that work through the full range of the Power Training Pecentages listed above. Doing so increase Power Output in a movement in the full range it.

Synergistic Effect

This means that the development of one strenght enhaces the other.

Thus, working with different Power Output Percentage carries over to the development of the other Power Output Percentages.

This is easily accomplised with progressive load warm up; working through the Lower Training to Higher Power Training Percentages.

In plain English, a Synergistic Effect amounts to adding 2 = 2 and getting 5!

Related Researh

1) Dr Brad Shoenfeld

Schoenfeld determined Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding was optimized with...

a) Mechanical Tension Maximum Strength Taining

2) Metabolic Stress Hypertrophy Training

3) Musdcle Damage Training, inFrequently pushing an exercise to failure or near to it, Loaded Stretches, etc.

To what exent Hypertrophy, Power and Maximum Strength are developed are dependent on which components are focused on; how the program is written.

2) Dr Michael Zourdos Conjugate Training

Zourdos research essentially supports Schoenfeld's with the following Conjugate Prortocol Strength Protocol.

1) Monday: Hypertrophy Training

2) Wednesday: Power Training

3) Friday: Maximum Strength Training

Zourdos found overall Strength increased with this method.

Push Band

It's a nice tool.

However, all it does is enforce what research has determined.
 
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Thanks Team,
My intentions with the tool is a little in house experiment on power/velocity of my and my athlete's swings with certain tweaks and adjustments.
I used to have a push band, and it was a great little device, which I definitely didn't use enough. Now that I have some ideas, it's not supported any more.
 
My intentions with the tool is a little in house experiment on power/velocity of my and my athlete's swings with certain tweaks and adjustments.
I used to have a push band, and it was a great little device, which I definitely didn't use enough.
Push Band

The Push Band is an interesting tool for evaluating Power.

The Power Factor device that I have an used was limited to Barbell Training Movements.

As stated in my previous post, all it did was reinforce the Training Percentage of the Load that elicited that greatest response.

Speed Training Percentage Example

With Traditional Strength Training Movements, Speed is optimally developed with load load of 10-40%, with 30% usually the sweet spot.

My best Force Production reading with the Power Factor with Jump Squats was with Load of 27% of 1 Repetition Max.

Thus, all the Power Factor device did was reinforce the research on the optimal Percentage Training Load for Speed Trai ning and Development.

Having a Push Band would be a nice tool. However, I don't see the need for it, when I already know the answer to the Training Percentages need to increase Power or Speed. I'd rather use that money for another toy.

Similarities of Car Speedometer, Heart Rate Monitors and Push Band

These device initially provide great feed back.

Car Speedometer

It rovide you with information on how fast your are going.

A Speedometer provides what it feel like when you are going 60 mph and 30 mph. You also can distinguish between 60 vs 30 mph.

Heart Rate Monitors

This provides you information on where you heart rate is in an exercise program. You learn where your heart rate based on relating the feeing with the heart rate number. The feeling of a heart rate reading of let's say of 120 is different from one that is around 80.

Push Band

The same applies to the Push Band. With enough use, you know the feel of what Loading Percentages fall into Power and Speed Training Percentages. Secondly, you can visually identify it in others, as well.

As with a Car Speedometer, you learn to identify , metaphorically speaking, when your going 60 vs 30 mph.

Summary

These devices initially allow you to identify where you are in "The Zone" as well as visualize where someone else is in "The Zone" by how quickly they are moving the Percentage Load.

With that in mind, let me reiterate the "Power Training" and "Speed Training" Percentage Zones have already been identified.

Velocity Based Training

Dr Daniel Baker is one of the leading researchers in this area.

Baker is able to determine a 1 Repetition Max based on the Velocity in teh movement: Power Produced ( Seed X Strength) in a movement.

Powerliftng and Olympic Lifting Meets

Good lifters and coach, can evaluate the approximately 1 Repetition Max of a Lifter based on how quickly the weight ascends.

At one meet, a Novice Lifter I was helping with in the Deadlift lost his balance and took a step backward, disqualing that lift.

He wanted to take the same weight on his second attempt.

Instead I had him increase the second attempt 30 lbs.

His loss of balance in his first attempt was because it was too light, pulling it up so fast that he lost his balance.

Increasing his Deadlift 30 lbs, ensured that he was still able to maintain good power, without losing his balance.

The amout of force that he produced with his second attempt, provided a good estimate of what his final Deadlift attempt should be

 
Hey team! Chris Chapman here. I was the sport scientist for PUSH that worked with Brett Jones and the team to bring PUSH to strongfirst. It's very unfortunate, and also devastating for me and the team personally, that PUSH was discontinued after the acquisition. 8 years of our heart, sweat and tears gone overnight.

I came across this post as I still comb the internet for VBT stuff regularly. Since I have zero bias to any devices anymore - i'm happy to give my two sense. You are pretty much limited to IMU style (intertial motion units - output, vmaxpro, movefactor X, calibrex) or camera phone based systems (metric, true rep, and others I need to do an updated review).

For the IMU's, I would have said output was the closest thing to PUSH, but the price is definitely more prohibitive. Also my colleague who worked with me at PUSH is just leaving them, not sure it will be a long term solution and may run into the same issues as PUSH. The other devices I haven't tested with KB exercises (we worked with Stongfirst to dial in the algorithms for all the exercises within their training model). Calibrex is the new kid on the block, and knowing how long it takes to dial in valid algorithms my guess is they will be more like beast at this time from a validity and reliability standpoint. We also found the magnets could fly off the KB depending on the exercises (this was with beast) so it is a potential problem with any magnet device. We were going to create a magnet attachment but decided against it. Movefactor X will be the most affordable option in this category and I know the creator Scott Damman has put a lot of resources into measuring power.

As far as the phone camera systems, to me the have a bit more friction. True rep intigues me the most I haven't used it. There is a little green magnet you put on an implement and then use your phone. I don't think they have KB exercises yet but would be interesting when they add it. I see this style of measurment becoming the norm but they have to create a UX/UI that is frictionless. This was one thing we put above all at PUSH was usability.

The string pod units aren't really an option in my opinion. They are great for barbell work but would be annoying for KB work. Also many of them don't have an angle sensor so as soon as the string isn't vertical the accuracy is off. Some do have angle sensors but dealing with a string isn't an option for Strongfirst style training.

I'm going to do some homework and try to answer this question as i'm curious for my own purposes. I use Q&D protocols a lot in my training and coaching and also need a replacement. PUSH still works at the moment if you have the app and don't need to update it but I know this will be short lived and not a long term solution. I know some are having issues with the app and can't get it to work.

If anyone has any specific questions or things they want me to look into as I dig into this further let me know! I'm going to stew on this more for sure.
 
Hey team! Chris Chapman here. I was the sport scientist for PUSH that worked with Brett Jones and the team to bring PUSH to strongfirst. It's very unfortunate, and also devastating for me and the team personally, that PUSH was discontinued after the acquisition. 8 years of our heart, sweat and tears gone overnight.

I came across this post as I still comb the internet for VBT stuff regularly. Since I have zero bias to any devices anymore - i'm happy to give my two sense. You are pretty much limited to IMU style (intertial motion units - output, vmaxpro, movefactor X, calibrex) or camera phone based systems (metric, true rep, and others I need to do an updated review).

For the IMU's, I would have said output was the closest thing to PUSH, but the price is definitely more prohibitive. Also my colleague who worked with me at PUSH is just leaving them, not sure it will be a long term solution and may run into the same issues as PUSH. The other devices I haven't tested with KB exercises (we worked with Stongfirst to dial in the algorithms for all the exercises within their training model). Calibrex is the new kid on the block, and knowing how long it takes to dial in valid algorithms my guess is they will be more like beast at this time from a validity and reliability standpoint. We also found the magnets could fly off the KB depending on the exercises (this was with beast) so it is a potential problem with any magnet device. We were going to create a magnet attachment but decided against it. Movefactor X will be the most affordable option in this category and I know the creator Scott Damman has put a lot of resources into measuring power.

As far as the phone camera systems, to me the have a bit more friction. True rep intigues me the most I haven't used it. There is a little green magnet you put on an implement and then use your phone. I don't think they have KB exercises yet but would be interesting when they add it. I see this style of measurment becoming the norm but they have to create a UX/UI that is frictionless. This was one thing we put above all at PUSH was usability.

The string pod units aren't really an option in my opinion. They are great for barbell work but would be annoying for KB work. Also many of them don't have an angle sensor so as soon as the string isn't vertical the accuracy is off. Some do have angle sensors but dealing with a string isn't an option for Strongfirst style training.

I'm going to do some homework and try to answer this question as i'm curious for my own purposes. I use Q&D protocols a lot in my training and coaching and also need a replacement. PUSH still works at the moment if you have the app and don't need to update it but I know this will be short lived and not a long term solution. I know some are having issues with the app and can't get it to work.

If anyone has any specific questions or things they want me to look into as I dig into this further let me know! I'm going to stew on this more for sure.
Thank you very much for the extensive answer Chris!

I can't imagine how devastating it could have been to see your hard work shut down like that.

If it means anything, both my clients and I loved PUSH. Unfortunately someone "borrowed my device" so it will only live in our memories.

There's a lot to learn from your answer and I really appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge.

I will keep my eyes open, if something pops up on this side of the pond.

My main interest currently would be to run a little in house experiment, with a group of people, to see how certain technique tweaks change the power output on kettlebell ballistics.
 
Hey team! Chris Chapman here. I was the sport scientist for PUSH that worked with Brett Jones and the team to bring PUSH to strongfirst. It's very unfortunate, and also devastating for me and the team personally, that PUSH was discontinued after the acquisition. 8 years of our heart, sweat and tears gone overnight.

I came across this post as I still comb the internet for VBT stuff regularly. Since I have zero bias to any devices anymore - i'm happy to give my two sense. You are pretty much limited to IMU style (intertial motion units - output, vmaxpro, movefactor X, calibrex) or camera phone based systems (metric, true rep, and others I need to do an updated review).

For the IMU's, I would have said output was the closest thing to PUSH, but the price is definitely more prohibitive. Also my colleague who worked with me at PUSH is just leaving them, not sure it will be a long term solution and may run into the same issues as PUSH. The other devices I haven't tested with KB exercises (we worked with Stongfirst to dial in the algorithms for all the exercises within their training model). Calibrex is the new kid on the block, and knowing how long it takes to dial in valid algorithms my guess is they will be more like beast at this time from a validity and reliability standpoint. We also found the magnets could fly off the KB depending on the exercises (this was with beast) so it is a potential problem with any magnet device. We were going to create a magnet attachment but decided against it. Movefactor X will be the most affordable option in this category and I know the creator Scott Damman has put a lot of resources into measuring power.

As far as the phone camera systems, to me the have a bit more friction. True rep intigues me the most I haven't used it. There is a little green magnet you put on an implement and then use your phone. I don't think they have KB exercises yet but would be interesting when they add it. I see this style of measurment becoming the norm but they have to create a UX/UI that is frictionless. This was one thing we put above all at PUSH was usability.

The string pod units aren't really an option in my opinion. They are great for barbell work but would be annoying for KB work. Also many of them don't have an angle sensor so as soon as the string isn't vertical the accuracy is off. Some do have angle sensors but dealing with a string isn't an option for Strongfirst style training.

I'm going to do some homework and try to answer this question as i'm curious for my own purposes. I use Q&D protocols a lot in my training and coaching and also need a replacement. PUSH still works at the moment if you have the app and don't need to update it but I know this will be short lived and not a long term solution. I know some are having issues with the app and can't get it to work.

If anyone has any specific questions or things they want me to look into as I dig into this further let me know! I'm going to stew on this more for sure.
At a quick glance it looks like Calibrex is trying to be the Polar HR monitor of the VBT world. It says that it is app independent, which might be great from a longevity standpoint. I'm not sure if it is just a marketing copy mistake or not, but if it really is independent of a server that might be a good option to avoid having what happened to PUSH happen to Calibrex.
 
At a quick glance it looks like Calibrex is trying to be the Polar HR monitor of the VBT world. It says that it is app independent, which might be great from a longevity standpoint. I'm not sure if it is just a marketing copy mistake or not, but if it really is independent of a server that might be a good option to avoid having what happened to PUSH happen to Calibrex.
The issue here is that it means they are doing everything on board the hardware, which is very limiting for growth. At PUSH we kept all the raw data files and stored them on the server and this allowed us to change algorithms and answers questions with already measured data. The app itself was running the algorithms which made for a beefy app but kept all the data intact. If everything is being done on the hardware you cannot go back to the raw data and re-process it so it becomes very hard to try now algorithms on a known dataset especially when you have the lab gold standard to see what gets you closer to truth. This is actually going a be a very limiting fault for them long term IMO. Unless their goal is to get other companies to build front end apps using their hardware, but I don't see how that overcomes the problems. I'll do some more digging on this one but I'm not sure its a better solution long term.
 
Thank you very much for the extensive answer Chris!

I can't imagine how devastating it could have been to see your hard work shut down like that.

If it means anything, both my clients and I loved PUSH. Unfortunately someone "borrowed my device" so it will only live in our memories.

There's a lot to learn from your answer and I really appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge.

I will keep my eyes open, if something pops up on this side of the pond.

My main interest currently would be to run a little in house experiment, with a group of people, to see how certain technique tweaks change the power output on kettlebell ballistics.
Yeah it was super sad. We all had to go through the stages of grief, unfortunately.

For that experiment I'm not sure there is a tool out there that would work. I have a vmax pro a german IMU I can test it against push when I'm home to see how it holds up. They operate under the name Enode now if you want to check them out.
 
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