Barbell Looking for squat advice

[the hansenator]

I finally bought a set of squat stands and have been doing back squats. The exercise feels good and seems uniquely beneficial. Since I started, my back and foot pain have improved so it's become my new favorite exercise.

Because of my history, my legs are pretty weak right now. I started with the bare bar doing 3 sets of 5, three days per week and adding 5 pounds per week. The workout itself doesn't feel real challenging but my legs are always tired and stiff, like I'm not recovering enough. Even walking seems like more effort because I feel kind of worn out.

I think I need to adjust something but am not sure what. I could reduce the volume, or the frequency, or maybe reduce the weight. So I'm hoping someone with more experience could offer some advice. Thanks.

 

[ShawnM]

The weight doesn't matter if you haven't done an exercise in a while. If you feel your getting benefits out of the squat continue with it, this will get easier and the soreness will eventually go away as your body adjusts. You may want to replace the second session with just plain bodyweight squats to maintain the groove and give the legs a break.

 

[Carl in Dover]

Advice from an older lifter....you may be going a little too fast for your recovery. Maybe try adding 5 pounds every other week? Or 3 weeks. Keeps you having fun lifting and in the groove while letting your body catch up to your enthusiasm.

Carl in Dover

 

[Anna C]

A video would help if you want to post one.

Do you do warm-up sets before your 3 sets of 5 at working weight?

 

[the hansenator]

For warm up I do a leg exercise my physical therapist gave me. Which brings up another question I have, at what point does it make sense to start including warmup sets? 45 or 60 pounds just doesn't feel strenuous enough to require much of a warm-up.

I think I'll lower the weight a little and take a cue from S&S and wait until I fully recover from workout to workout before increasing it.

I was looking forward to increasing the weight. Looking at programs like Stronglifts or Starting Strength, it's easy to have high expectations but I suppose where I'm at is where I'm at.

 

[Anna C]

Here is what I did Friday, from my training log... pretty typical for warm-up sets relative to working sets:

Warm-up sets: 2x5 45, 1x5 95, 1x5 145, 1x3 195. So that's 2 sets of 5 reps with just the bar (45 lb), then 1 set of 5 with 95 lb, 1 set of 5 with 145, 1 set of 3 with 195.
Working sets: 5x3 210. So that's 5 sets of 3 reps at 210 lb.

Can you give an idea what you're doing relative to that?

 

[the hansenator]

Well, I started with the empty bar, those were my work sets the first week. Your 95 pound warmup set is heavier than I've gotten so far.

I did find this Stronglifts warmup guide which prescribes warm up sets starting at 65 pounds. It looks pretty easy to follow.

 

[Bill Been]

How much weight have you gained since you started squatting?

How much are you resting between sets?

What is this physio-prescribed leg exercise?

Do not de-load. Do not adjust you weight progression plan - it’s too slow already.

 

[North Coast Miller]

With barbell every lift needs to be dialed in at low load, the empty Olympic bar is fine if not ideal for average folk.

Stretch at the end of every workout and shoot to improve just as you do with strength. Warm up to begin and stretch to finish. Exhale into your stretch. Legs can get stiff and cranky very easily when asked to do more work - the mule of the body musculature in every way, and you have to be the mule driver. They adapt impressively but grudgingly.

If the load is a serious challenge, I'd consider only training 2x week. Reduce frequency over reducing load, every other day is too much if you are really pounding them.

I would include some low load/higher rep sessions to keep things pliant, maybe every three or four sessions minimum.

 

[ShawnM]

For warm ups may be just do a few sets of 5 with just body weight. There’s no no to go nuts. But log the warm ups so you can see progression/results from what you are/not doing. Keep squatting my friend!

 

[JeffC]

I have been lifting regularly but not loading my squat heavy. I did Front Squats for the first time in a while. I worked up to a heavy single and some back off work. I knew I would be sore. I couldn’t walk for 4-5 days. The next week I did 5/3/1 Front Squats and Leg Press. I had soreness not as bad as last time but lasted about four days. The next week I did not have much discomfort. This week I did a lot more volume and feel good.

If you are detrained and are getting back into it soreness is expected. If you do more than you have done you will probably have discomfort also. I think of it as building immunity. You do a level of work and get sore and tight. Typically you go above that and can get expect some muscle soreness and so on and so on.

It is a phase you will have to work through.

 

[the hansenator]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not actually getting sore and the weight doesn't feel very challenging, I could easily add more. I just feel fatigued all the time, especially in the glutes, and wasn't sure if I should adjust what I'm doing.

It's not so much a matter of being detrained and getting back into it. I've never done much for lower body barbell exercises because they bothered my back. And over the last 7 years or so I've been able to do very little at all due to foot pain and even worse back problems. The physical therapist helped me fix it but right now I'm really weak.

@Bill Been - I have gained no weight since starting squatting, it's been barely a month though.

I haven't been timing my rests but it's probably in the three minute range.

The physio-prescribed exercise is kind of like doing partial pistols going backwards up the stairs. He emphasized that he wants me to have to reach up to the next step. The goal was to get the glutes to work while minimizing inolvement of the overactive QL.

You were right about the back squats and I'm inclined to take your advice regarding loading. Should I adjust the schedule or stick with the 3x5 3/week?

 

[Anna C]

I did find this Stronglifts warmup guide which prescribes warm up sets starting at 65 pounds. It looks pretty easy to follow.

+1 for that warm-up guide. It looks just right and I'd recommend following it.

Sounds like your legs are just de-trained. Eat lots of protein, give yourself a little calorie surplus, and keep training!

Looking at programs like Stronglifts or Starting Strength, it's easy to have high expectations but I suppose where I'm at is where I'm at.

Keep those high expectations. Even as an older lifter (I am 50), you can make rapid progress, specially on the low bar squat.

The physio-prescribed exercise is kind of like doing partial pistols going backwards up the stairs. He emphasized that he wants me to have to reach up to the next step. The goal was to get the glutes to work while minimizing inolvement of the overactive QL.

Hard to guess how much this might be fatiguing you or contributing to the soreness. Maybe check in with the physio and make sure the amount of this that you are doing is what he intended. In any case, I'm going to guess that the squats will bring you more benefit than this...

 

[the hansenator]

Hard to guess how much this might be fatiguing you or contributing to the soreness. Maybe check in with the physio and make sure the amount of this that you are doing is what he intended. In any case, I'm going to guess that the squats will bring you more benefit than this...

That one's not real taxing. I'm sticking to his original prescription of 3 sets of 8 reps. You're absolutey right that the squats will build more strength. I still like this exercise for activation and to make sure I'm feeling the right muscles.

 

[the hansenator]

So I stuck with 3x5, 3/week adding 5 pounds per workout and following the warmup guide that's linked above. The feeling of fatigue has gotten better. Now I'm just sore in the glutes and thighs, especially the glutes.

My posterior chain has a weak link though and I think I'm at it's limit. It's getting harder to keep that muscle engaged and I'm feeling more back and foot pain. It's frustrating because the other leg muscles could still handle more weight but my "weak link" is what limits what I can do and how hard. So I think I'll back off on the weight and start building it up again over the next couple of weeks.

 

[Anna C]

So I stuck with 3x5, 3/week adding 5 pounds per workout and following the warmup guide that's linked above. The feeling of fatigue has gotten better. Now I'm just sore in the glutes and thighs, especially the glutes.

Sounds good!

My posterior chain has a weak link though and I think I'm at it's limit. It's getting harder to keep that muscle engaged and I'm feeling more back and foot pain. It's frustrating because the other leg muscles could still handle more weight but my "weak link" is what limits what I can do and how hard.

Yes, there's always a weak link... stay with what you can do while keeping that weak link fully engaged as it should be, always working on your form.

The pain may -- or may not -- be indicative of a problem. This is a tricky area... but do you always tend to stop or back off from what you're doing if you feel pain?

So I think I'll back off on the weight and start building it up again over the next couple of weeks.

If you are good at the weight you're doing, I wouldn't go down. Just increase more slowly from one session to the next. If you have microplates, you can increase just 1 lb or 2 lb per week or whatever instead of having to go up in 5 lb increments.

 

[the hansenator]

Sounds good!



Yes, there's always a weak link... stay with what you can do while keeping that weak link fully engaged as it should be, always working on your form.

The pain may -- or may not -- be indicative of a problem. This is a tricky area... but do you always tend to stop or back off from what you're doing if you feel pain?



If you are good at the weight you're doing, I wouldn't go down. Just increase more slowly from one session to the next. If you have microplates, you can increase just 1 lb or 2 lb per week or whatever instead of having to go up in 5 lb increments.

I probably should have provided more detail, I was trying to keep it brief.

There's no pain while doing the exercise. But while I'm walking or standing the right foot feels like there's a rock under the toes, and the right QL gets tight and irritated. It's much better than it was though. I went about 8 years not being able to stand or walk without pain. And I'm doing much better now than I was at this time last year.

My weak muscle, in the upper glute area, was offline until fairly recently. I remember how weird it was when I first felt it, like discovering a tail I never knew I had. It was the reason I couldn't deadlift for 20+ years and a big contributor to my long history of back pain. It's probably related to my medical history - In addition to getting a sloppy surgeon, I'm convinced that lying in bed for months at a time is not good for you.

Anyway, as fatigue accumulates in my weak muscle, my foot and back symptoms get worse. It just doesn't work as hard when it's tired, and it tires easily. The only thing that helps is to take it easy for a while. As the muscle rests up my back and foot symptoms start to improve. If I really pushed it I might have to "find" the muscle again and work on activation exercises until it comes back online. So I try not to push it too far.

Rather than stop working out entirely, I thought it better to back off to a light enough weight for my weak muscle to rest up a bit while still practicing the squat pattern. And then see if I can build to a higher weight than last time.

 

[Anna C]

Yeah, sounds like you are the right track to strengthening it, and you know how to manage it. Keep it up and keep us posted!

 

[Bill Been]

The beauty of training the barbell squat is that if you have a particular weak area, the barbell allows you to titrate the load up to a point that it is a little bit challenging to form but yet the outcome of the lift is not in doubt at all. This is a load you can just barely feel - just enough to make you work a bit to keep the form together. At that moment - with a load that makes you work, but is not so much is causes a form breakdown - every one of the muscles involved in the squat is doing exactly what its proper contextual anatomical function is. Even the weaker part is doing what it's supposed to do. More to the point, the weaker part receives a training stimulus, possibly a stronger stimulus than the better developed muscle groups. Ergo, as you actually TRAIN the squat by returning 48-72 hours later to repeat those 3 sets of 5 with an additional 5lbs on the bar, everything continues to get stronger in its normal anatomical function until SHAZAM!! a few months later your "weak areas" are a dim memory.

 

[the hansenator]

@Bill Been You seem to describe my experience. The squats have helped, I can tell. And I can feel my weak muscle working the way it should. It has a lot of catching up to do though and I can tell I'm near the point of form breakdown.

I'm feeling pretty beat up right now and it's negatively affecting my back and foot symptons, and other activities. And being able to do the "other" activities is the biggest reason I work out.

I'm looking forward to having a few light days and then start building up the weight again.