Barbell Lumbar Training, Rounding The Lower Back

[Hardartery]

Looks like a decent bit of kit for those short on space and money. No excuse not to have one really. I think I'm still going to wait for a full sized version to become available as the instability would worry me and my missus bruises VERY easily so something with more padding would benefit her more too.

However only a food would argue against the value of this piece of kit.

The full size one is non-collapsible and has been available for over 20 years. I've used it, and don't get the thrill. It is probably great if it addresses a weakness for you, I think Louie is pretty sharp when it comes to training and I pay a lot of attention to what he says, but not everyone needs this. The real one wasn't particularly more padded btw, and is not much more stable unless you bolt it down.

 

[Starlord]

The full size one is non-collapsible and has been available for over 20 years. I've used it, and don't get the thrill. It is probably great if it addresses a weakness for you, I think Louie is pretty sharp when it comes to training and I pay a lot of attention to what he says, but not everyone needs this. The real one wasn't particularly more padded btw, and is not much more stable unless you bolt it down.

It also tractions the spine as well. I am aware of the reverse hyper as per my previous comments in the thread that you probably missed. I have used the original WSBB reverse hyper and it is pretty stable.

I am merely making the leap to having my own full home gym setup. I'm from the UK and our lockdown restrictions has lead to a massive regression. So lowering my dependency on work gyms would prevent this in future.

 

[Hardartery]

It also tractions the spine as well. I am aware of the reverse hyper as per my previous comments in the thread that you probably missed. I have used the original WSBB reverse hyper and it is pretty stable.

I am merely making the leap to having my own full home gym setup. I'm from the UK and our lockdown restrictions has lead to a massive regression. So lowering my dependency on work gyms would prevent this in future.

I found the stability largely revolved around how much weight and how explosively you move it. There was a thing for a while to do the extension explosively (Maybe there still is, I haven't kept up) That definitely seemed less than effective, and the thing really bounces if you do that with a bunch of plates on it. It seems really beneficial for some, I can't really put my finger on what the difference between them and those that do not derive much benefit. the training is usually the same or similar between the two groups. Some guys really get destroyed by Glue-hams and Turkish Getups too. I never found either to be difficult or to offer me much carryover. The guy I trained with lived and died by them.

 

[rickyw]

I skimmed this thread, but thought I would just briefly share that in his book Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance, McGill specifically discusses this topic. Essentially, deadlifts and squats do not create strong enough contraction of the erector spinae muscles to strengthen them as much as they otherwise could be strengthened. He studied this specifically with EMG. For certain strength athletes who need even greater erector spinae strength, he walks through an exercise he uses to increase erector spinae strength beyond what deadlifts and squats do, which involves loaded spinal flexion to extension through a reduced range of motion; for details see his book, it’s quite interesting. He also discusses Bill Kazmaier, and how he would do this as well. All in all, the section of his book is quite informative on the topic.
I would also venture to say that unless you’re a professional strength athlete, you probably don’t need to worry about it.

 

[Starlord]

I found the stability largely revolved around how much weight and how explosively you move it. There was a thing for a while to do the extension explosively (Maybe there still is, I haven't kept up) That definitely seemed less than effective, and the thing really bounces if you do that with a bunch of plates on it. It seems really beneficial for some, I can't really put my finger on what the difference between them and those that do not derive much benefit. the training is usually the same or similar between the two groups. Some guys really get destroyed by Glue-hams and Turkish Getups too. I never found either to be difficult or to offer me much carryover. The guy I trained with lived and died by them.

I noticed instability and jumping with the variation that had a chain at the bottom. That was not the most well thought out product.

All in all I find the reverse hyper a top shelf piece of kit. My weight will vary between 80-90kg (depending on my current focus) at 173cm tall. However I can sumo 300kg (with straps) so 100kg on the reverse hyper does wonders for spinal decompression. No amount of hanging from a pull up bar can replicate how effective this is.

GHRs and back Raises are also great lifts and I like to use them for decompression whilst building the posterior chain as well. However they don't havethe same traction capability as the reverse hyper.

As I've gotten older I've realised that the deadlift requires the least amount of specialised work to improve. I also realised that the deadlift has a huge recovery demand as well. So stimulus to fatigue ratio becomes horrendous and fast.

So variation in building the deadlift for me beats specificity at my level all day everyday.

 

[Hardartery]

As I've gotten older I've realised that the deadlift requires the least amount of specialised work to improve. I also realised that the deadlift has a huge recovery demand as well. So stimulus to fatigue ratio becomes horrendous and fast.

You are not kidding. It's neck down work, but it trashes you if you do it right.

 

[william bad butt]

I skimmed this thread, but thought I would just briefly share that in his book Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance, McGill specifically discusses this topic. Essentially, deadlifts and squats do not create strong enough contraction of the erector spinae muscles to strengthen them as much as they otherwise could be strengthened. He studied this specifically with EMG. For certain strength athletes who need even greater erector spinae strength, he walks through an exercise he uses to increase erector spinae strength beyond what deadlifts and squats do, which involves loaded spinal flexion to extension through a reduced range of motion; for details see his book, it’s quite interesting. He also discusses Bill Kazmaier, and how he would do this as well. All in all, the section of his book is quite informative on the topic.
I would also venture to say that unless you’re a professional strength athlete, you probably don’t need to worry about it.

Wow! Thanks for this. I have that book and I have no idea what excersise you are referring to in McGills book. I'll have to look through that book again tonight.

Regards,

Eric

 

[watchnerd]

Wow! Thanks for this. I have that book and I have no idea what excersise you are referring to in McGills book. I'll have to look through that book again tonight.

Regards,

Eric

Jefferson curl???





Nah....

 

[watchnerd]

We do these in the calisthenics world. You can add weight with ankle weights or by holding a dumbbell between your knees or something. I would emphasize that a long range of motion where the lumbar is allowed to flex a little at the bottom of the motion is important.




I believe he mentioned it in one of the SF podcasts. It's a good point, and I wonder if it may relate to the SAID prinicple. The more specialized you get (read: wanting to deadlift a lot of weight), the more it may serve one to avoid certain things?

Edit: I do think, though, that if that's the case, then it's not worth it for me to be able to deadlift a lot if it comes at the cost of mobility.

Okay, I just tried this on top of my plyobox.

Observations:

1. This guy must have a much lower body / upper body ratio than me, as I kept having to fight to keep the box from tipping up at the front, even when moving slowly.

2. PPT.....naturally it makes sense for gymnastics and calisthenics. But I really need to think about whether this is still true for PL?

3. Should I be doing iso-holds for time? Reps?

 

[bluejeff]

Okay, I just tried this on top of my plyobox.

Observations:

1. This guy must have a much lower body / upper body ratio than me, as I kept having to fight to keep the box from tipping up at the front, even when moving slowly.

2. PPT.....naturally it makes sense for gymnastics and calisthenics. But I really need to think about whether this is still true for PL?

3. Should I be doing iso-holds for time? Reps?

1.Yeah you might need to find something sturdy enough to support your own proportions. I have an island counter in my kitchen where I can lay across it and hold on to the opposite side.

2. "whether this is still true for PL?"
Are you referring to planche? If so there's some grey area here. Depending on each individual's hip mobility, they might have more or less PPT. Either way the idea is to extend the body out long, so attempting PPT will do the trick.

Also, thinking about PPT will get you to engage your glutes more, instead of letting your lower back dominate the motion.

3. You can do any combination of holds or reps.

A roughly easiest-to-hardest order of progressions would be:

-Straddle reps (I do 3 sets of 10) with a short pause at the top
-Alternating between straddle and straight (legs together) for reps with pause at the top
-Iso holds (10-20 seconds is plenty, for 3-6 sets)
-Doing an iso straddle hold and "scissoring" the legs from straddle to straight.
-Any of those variations with added weight (ankle weights or with a dumbbell or such between your knees)

Incidentally, doing the straddle variations may help you with getting into a strict middle or side splits, because of the glute engagement. If that's something you care about.

 

[bluejeff]

Also, Jefferson Curls are great, but it's quite tricky to allow the lower back to round. Most people instinctively straighten it as soon as they start the concentric portion of the lift. I think I would still place the reverse hyper as a better lower back-focused exercise. J-curls are a bit more for lengthening the posterior chain under load. They'll do wonders for your flexibility too. Not sure about combining them with deadlift training though.

 

[watchnerd]

2. "whether this is still true for PL?"
Are you referring to planche? If so there's some grey area here. Depending on each individual's hip mobility, they might have more or less PPT. Either way the idea is to extend the body out long, so attempting PPT will do the trick.

Also, thinking about PPT will get you to engage your glutes more, instead of letting your lower back dominate the motion.

Sorry.

The PL in that context was powerlifting.

In other words, per the original topic, should powerlifters / weightlifters use PPT when doing reverse hypers, given they don't use the hollow body position in their lifts?

 

[bluejeff]

Sorry.

The PL in that context was powerlifting.

In other words, per the original topic, should powerlifters / weightlifters use PPT when doing reverse hypers, given they don't use the hollow body position in their lifts?

Ahh, gotcha. That question I will defer to the barbell experts, which I am not...

 

[Steve Freides]

Been away a bit of late, trying to catch up on this thread. I'll start with a link to me doing a Zercher DL:



and point out that, even in this movement, I manage without, IMO, bending my lumbar spine. I achieve the starting position, again IMO, by a combination of hamstring, hip, and upper back flexibility. IMO because you're welcomed to watch the video and disagree.

@kennycro@@aol.com, I have pulled "squat stance sumo" pretty recently, using it for about 50% of my volume for a few months within the last year. I will do that again sometime soon, too, but for now, I am much weaker this way.

OTOH, I have had good results in the past training deficit deadlifts and am doing that again now, currently doing all of my pulling standing on a 3" platform with weights in the 70-80% range and executing a very controlled negative all the way to the bottom. I have no competitions currently scheduled, but am going to target next summer, and am planning on lowering the deficit as the weights get heavier, again an approach I've had success with in the past.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I'll start with a link to me doing a Zercher DL:

Impressive

That is a nice weight for the Zercher DL.

I am a bit of a wimp. I can't

an approach I've had success with in the past.

take pain in the arms with the bar in the elbows.

...bending my lumbar spine. I achieve the starting position, ...by a combination of hamstring, hip, and upper back flexibility.

Posterior Chain

Yea, you're working everything in the posterior chain; bottom to top.

"squat stance sumo" ... I am much weaker this way.

Deadlift Stance

I have tried Sumo and Squat Stance Sumo. However like you, they never felt right to me. Basically, I had to them my technique too much.

The Conventional Deadlift is a more natural movement for me. I don't think about it, it natural. I just do it.

Ironically, it the same with my Squat. I did well using a Wide Stance. However, every time I Squatted, it felt like a new movement.

More of slightly more Narrow Medium Squat feels right. Plus, the Wide Stance was killing my hips.

Deficit Deadlifts

I did them years ago and had great results after reading an article on them.

During that time, I'd only perform Deficit Deadlift (no regular Deadlift) before the meet. My Meet Deadlift when up performing them.

Tight Hamstrings

One of my issue with performing regular Deadlifts was my back ached for days after heavy training.

What I learned was that my issue was that I had tight hamstrings. Tight hamstrings cause (can cause) lower back pain.
Deficit Deadlifts really stretched my hamstring; taking the tension off my back; eliminating my back pain.

I now preform Good Morning and get same hamstring stretch with them.

My tight hamstring issue reminds me of...

My Car Steering Wheel Issue

Years ago, I took my car to my mechanic. At certain speed the steering wheel would shake.

My mechanic laughed and told me there nothing wrong with your steering wheel; your tire are out of balance. As we know, often an issue is triggered by something else down the line.

an approach I've had success with in the past.

What Every Works

Sound like you have it dialed in.

 

[Steve Freides]

... the Wide Stance was killing my hips.

I felt that, too. My low-bar squat is now just a little wider than my front squat and high-bar back squat. I've found that I like feeling that I need to push my knees out when I squat low-bar, and I don't feel that with a narrower stance - but I don't like to feel it a _lot_, just enough to get those additional muscles to fire. (The fact that I'm bow-legged may be a factor - my knees are always out.)

One of my issue with performing regular Deadlifts was my back ached for days after heavy training.

What I learned was that my issue was that I had tight hamstrings. Tight hamstrings cause (can cause) lower back pain.
Deficit Deadlifts really stretched my hamstring; taking the tension off my back; eliminating my back pain.

If I had a penny for every person that thinks conventional barbell deadlifts are bad for your back whose problems are really tight hamstrings, I'd be rich.

Sound like you have it dialed in.

Oh, how I wish _that_ were true. What I can say is that I've tried a lot of things over the past couple of years after setting some PR's in 2018. None of my experiments haven't resulted in a better deadlift. I learned a lot, and I haven't written off all of these experiments because I don't think I stayed with some of them for long enough to reap the benefits they could offer me. Some of them took me away from what feels like my best way to deadlift, and those are the ones I really have to think about as to whether or not I want to train them again.

Onward and Upward!

... or in the case of deficit deadlifts, onward and downward.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

What I can say is that I've tried a lot of things over the past couple of years after setting some PR's in 2018. None of my experiments haven't resulted in a better deadlift.

"Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing." Einstein

In other words, no matter how smart you are, you don't always get it right the first time.

Alexander Graham Bell

His view was that when he got something wrong, he just eliminated what didn't works and got closer to finding out what would work.

My Advance Complex Training Experiment

My training revolves around Complex Training (Post Activation Potentiation Training) because it works.

Years ago, I ramped it up with what I termed Advance Deadlift Complex Training for a year. In doing so, I ended up taking 50 lbs off my Deadlift.

I then revise the program after that year and increased my Deadlift 20 lb above my personal best.

It was like...

Baking A Cake

I had all the right ingredients but didn't use amounts.

I learned a lot, and I haven't written off all of these experiments because I don't think I stayed with some of them for long enough to reap the benefits they could offer me.

A Common Issue

Everyone has done that. I did that in my early days of lifting.

The biggest issue with many is that in the learning process, they lose ground and abandon the program.

As with anything, time is part of the learning process.

Another issue is that sometimes, the program isn't correctly written or executed. My initial Advance Deadlift Complex Training Program was a nightmare. The concept of the program made sense. However, I stuck with in, realizing that I probably had not written it correctly; which was true.

Some of them took me away from what feels like my best way to deadlift, and those are the ones I really have to think about as to whether or not I want to train them again.

Great Point

There definitely something to following your "Gut feeling".

Why Doesn't It Work For Me?

What I consider is, if it working for other, "Why not me?"

My answer is usually, that the issue isn't the program but me. I either missed a step or two or inputted it incorrectly.

It's like the Baking A Cake story, which is a true story.

I had the recipe. It stated to add a cup of oil. For some reason, I grabbed a measuring cup that was 16 oz, which was two cups.

In my head the cup was "a" meaning one cup, which it wasn't, So, I added two cups of oil.

My wife figured it out after I went over it with her. Evidently, I wasn't smart enough. .

Baseball

"It better to fall on your face going for the ball than fall back on your butt waiting for the ball to come to you." Billy Martin

The same is true with trying new thing with lifting and life in general.

Also, you will make over a million dollar a year in baseball if your batting average is over .300.

That mean your right 30% of the time and wrong 70% of the time

 

[Hardartery]

Been away a bit of late, trying to catch up on this thread. I'll start with a link to me doing a Zercher DL:



and point out that, even in this movement, I manage without, IMO, bending my lumbar spine. I achieve the starting position, again IMO, by a combination of hamstring, hip, and upper back flexibility. IMO because you're welcomed to watch the video and disagree.

@kennycro@@aol.com, I have pulled "squat stance sumo" pretty recently, using it for about 50% of my volume for a few months within the last year. I will do that again sometime soon, too, but for now, I am much weaker this way.

OTOH, I have had good results in the past training deficit deadlifts and am doing that again now, currently doing all of my pulling standing on a 3" platform with weights in the 70-80% range and executing a very controlled negative all the way to the bottom. I have no competitions currently scheduled, but am going to target next summer, and am planning on lowering the deficit as the weights get heavier, again an approach I've had success with in the past.

-S-

Zercher DL's are soooooooo much more comfortable with a thick bar. A 2" axle is nice, Bigger is better. I have a 2 3/8" bar when I'm in the US, it is fantastic for these and makes GM's much more tolerable too.

 

[Steve Freides]

Zercher DL's are soooooooo much more comfortable with a thick bar. A 2" axle is nice, Bigger is better. I have a 2 3/8" bar when I'm in the US, it is fantastic for these and makes GM's much more tolerable too.

I am a bit of a wimp. I can't

take pain in the arms with the bar in the elbows.

As long as I'm squeezing tightly, my elbows don't bother me enough to be cause for concern in this lift. @Hardartery, I actually prefer the thinner bar only because I can squeeze it tighter.

I have to get back to doing these again. Might try them after BP on BP day to help stretch out my back.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

As long as I'm squeezing tightly, my elbows don't bother me enough to be cause for concern in this lift.

I need to give them another try.

Thanks,