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Strong Endurance MAF HR for repeat training and and HR "interia"

Jason Srebnick

Level 2 Valued Member
Hi All,

I was wondering if someone could help me clarify something regarding using MAF heartrate for repeat type training: kettlebell ballistics (or even grinds for something like Iron Cardio) as well as things like sprints on an Air Bike.

If I do a set of [swings, snatches, LCCJ, air bike sprint, heavy bag, etc.] upon completion of the set my HR does not exceed my MAF HR (or I’ve terminated the set once it does) but after the set it continues to go up. I believe this has been referred to as inertia? But I could have the vernacular wrong.

Anyways, my question is should I tweak my intensity (time or weight or reps or watts) so that my HR does not exceed my MAF HR, not even post set/sprint? Or is this increase expected and the “nature” of this type of training? My muscles don’t feel like they are burning and I can pass the talk test (albeit not as easy as the session goes longer).

Once my HR has peaked it actually recovers quite quickly (which I think is good).

Here’s a recent real-world example: I did 8 sets of 10s sprints as hard as I could on an Air Bike. I rested 3 minutes between sprints and was wearing a HR monitor. For sets 1-4 upon completion of the sprint my HR was below or just at MAF and would continue to go up slightly (but not exceeding MAR HR). However, for sets 5-8 while my HR didn’t hit my MAF HR during the sprint, it would continue to go up (went as high as 18 BPM over at one point) after the set was complete. Which was 87% of maximum (using traditional 220-age formula).

But, I guess the heart of my question is: regardless of type of exercise or amount of time ‘sprinting’, rest periods, etc., generally speaking, for repeat type training do you stop once you’ve hit your MAF HR or before it, knowing your HR will continue to go up 5-20 or so beats once the set is complete due to inertia.

I hope I’m making sense here. Please let me know if I can clarify at all and thank you very much in advance for any insight.

My goal is general health and longevity, general fitness, and being “ready” (to help a neighbor move a couch, shovel snow, etc.). Although I am looking to get back into recreational martial arts and hockey and hoping this will lay the foundation for those.
 
I might be incorrect re this, but using MAF for intervals is maybe not going to lead to the adaptive response you’re looking for (aerobic conditioning).

Even though your HR is at relatively low rate, the effort is above aerobic threshold but effort too short to register. That is, with a longer rest, you’re primarily training anaerobic capacity.

MAF will work a lot better as part of a lower intensity, steady state, longer duration effort. Just my 2¢…
 
That ^^^ was more or less my thought as well.

Jason Srebnick said:
I was wondering if someone could help me clarify something regarding using MAF heartrate for repeat type training: kettlebell ballistics (or even grinds for something like Iron Cardio) as well as things like sprints on an Air Bike.
Click to expand...
my understanding of Maffetone-style training is that it is meant to be LISS, low intensity, steady state, not interval. If you enjoy interval training, my suggestion is to look into other SF-style modalities, such as A+A (alactic + aerobic) and/or Q&D (Quick and the Dead). Your other option is HIIT, as it was more originally formulated (10s on, full blast, as hard as possible, interspersed with 20s rests). @North Coast Miller is our resident HIIT expert ;)

In my understanding, Maffetone HR does not jive with interval training. The whole point of interval training, from my understanding, is to spike the heart rate and then let it recover.
 
Jason Srebnick said:
Hi All,

I was wondering if someone could help me clarify something regarding using MAF heartrate for repeat type training: kettlebell ballistics (or even grinds for something like Iron Cardio) as well as things like sprints on an Air Bike.

If I do a set of [swings, snatches, LCCJ, air bike sprint, heavy bag, etc.] upon completion of the set my HR does not exceed my MAF HR (or I’ve terminated the set once it does) but after the set it continues to go up. I believe this has been referred to as inertia? But I could have the vernacular wrong.

Anyways, my question is should I tweak my intensity (time or weight or reps or watts) so that my HR does not exceed my MAF HR, not even post set/sprint? Or is this increase expected and the “nature” of this type of training? My muscles don’t feel like they are burning and I can pass the talk test (albeit not as easy as the session goes longer).

Once my HR has peaked it actually recovers quite quickly (which I think is good).

Here’s a recent real-world example: I did 8 sets of 10s sprints as hard as I could on an Air Bike. I rested 3 minutes between sprints and was wearing a HR monitor. For sets 1-4 upon completion of the sprint my HR was below or just at MAF and would continue to go up slightly (but not exceeding MAR HR). However, for sets 5-8 while my HR didn’t hit my MAF HR during the sprint, it would continue to go up (went as high as 18 BPM over at one point) after the set was complete. Which was 87% of maximum (using traditional 220-age formula).

But, I guess the heart of my question is: regardless of type of exercise or amount of time ‘sprinting’, rest periods, etc., generally speaking, for repeat type training do you stop once you’ve hit your MAF HR or before it, knowing your HR will continue to go up 5-20 or so beats once the set is complete due to inertia.

I hope I’m making sense here. Please let me know if I can clarify at all and thank you very much in advance for any insight.

My goal is general health and longevity, general fitness, and being “ready” (to help a neighbor move a couch, shovel snow, etc.). Although I am looking to get back into recreational martial arts and hockey and hoping this will lay the foundation for those.
Click to expand...
+1 to NCM's post, MAF for long duration easy Zone 1-2 stuff. With repeats I try to peg HR, think 8 x :90 sec on the Air Bike with 3 mins rest in btwn.
 
Agree... HR can be informative during any type of exercise, but it shouldn't be prescriptive around the MAF number for anything other than steady state cardio.
 
Anna C said:
Agree... HR can be informative during any type of exercise, but it shouldn't be prescriptive around the MAF number for anything other than steady state cardio.
Click to expand...
When I've trained this way, I liked the idea of letting my HR get back into Zone 2, sometimes the middle of Zone 2, before doing my next set of swings.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
When I've trained this way, I liked the idea of letting my HR get back into Zone 2, sometimes the middle of Zone 2, before doing my next set of swings.

-S-
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Sure, makes sense to use different ranges or values of HR to guide or indicate different things. I've certainly used HR monitoring in kettlebell training. My point (agreeing with what @bluejeff and others said) is that it's not "MAF" (maximum aerobic function) if you're not doing steady state cardio, therefore there's nothing particularly meaningful about that number, staying above it, staying below it, etc. unless you're doing aerobic training.
 
I have posted this before. I know it's an instagram post, but the poster lays out some of the issues with being overly focused on HR when it comes to seeking aerobic response. Definitely have to read all the slides. When we are seeking a certain response from training, we need to be sure that we are not confusing what we feel during traniing for an actual training stimulus. Having an elevated HR does not necessarily mean you are getting the aerobic training stimulus you are after.

 
bluejeff said:
I have posted this before. I know it's an instagram post, but the poster lays out some of the issues with being overly focused on HR when it comes to seeking aerobic response. Definitely have to read all the slides. When we are seeking a certain response from training, we need to be sure that we are not confusing what we feel during traniing for an actual training stimulus. Having an elevated HR does not necessarily mean you are getting the aerobic training stimulus you are after.
Click to expand...
This was a really helpful post. It answers questions like, "if I had an extra cup of coffee, should my target HR on the elliptical be the same?" and whether that extra 10 bpm I get when I'm thinking of a frustrating conversation in the past has any training effect (yes I've actually observed that, haha).
 
Thank you for all of the replies and insight. The Instagram post was particularly helpful and insightful. Great stuff and great forum. THANK YOU!

I do think, as others pointed out, that a lot can be gained from tracking one's HR during intervals style training.
For example: what is HR at the start of the interval v. the end of interval, HR at x no. of seconds post intervals (i.e. heart recovery), and then how do these numbers change from one set to the next. More than likely you will see these numbers get directionally better as your fitness improves.

One thing that prompted me to pose this question was this article: Using SFG Principles and the Maffetone Method to Improve Client Results | StrongFirst where it did appear they were trying to use HR training with KB ballistics. Apologies, I realize now I should have mentioned it in my initial post.
 
Jason Srebnick said:
My goal is general health and longevity, general fitness, and being “ready” (to help a neighbor move a couch, shovel snow, etc.). Although I am looking to get back into recreational martial arts and hockey and hoping this will lay the foundation for those.
Click to expand...
I may be in a minority here, but I have always had pretty good luck just doing what Pavel says to do with respect to my goals, rather than trying to mix his advice with advice from someone else's program.

It sounds like your goals could be readily met with S&S or...

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The Best All-Around Training Method EVER | StrongFirst

This method, while it does not maximize the development of any of the above qualities—only a highly specialized method, not a general physical preparation one, could do that—it develops them to levels high enough to successfully compete in amateur sports, excel at physically demanding...
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In either one, Pavel tells you exactly what to do about HR' and talk tests.
 
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