Other/Mixed Max Power Training, submaximal grinds. Sonny Bill Williams training

[Oscar]

Sonny Bill Williams is a great rugby player from New Zealand, particularly powerful, big and strong. A while back I read about his strength training, which said it was focused on power, alongside barbell grinds, which were rather light. If I recall correctly, the power moves were barbell weightlifting type lifts (power cleans, etc). Unfortunately I can't find the link, so you'll have to take my word for it.

Anyway, the idea of putting the focus on power, and then doing some submaximal barbell grinds in the 8-12 rep range, makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe something like this:

• Main power lift:
  • KB swings, snatches or barbell power cleans.
  • Quick and Dead, Aerobic and Alactic or Axe come to mind as programs.
• Complementary barbell work:
  • 3x10 back squat, submaximal (let's say with 14 RM)
  • 3x10 bench, ditto
  • Maybe some pull ups

To be repeated 3 times a week.

Any thoughts?

 

[Anna C]

Sonny Bill Williams is a great rugby player from New Zealand, particularly powerful, big and strong. A while back I read about his strength training, which said it was focused on power, alongside barbell grinds, which were rather light. If I recall correctly, the power moves were barbell weightlifting type lifts (power cleans, etc). Unfortunately I can't find the link, so you'll have to take my word for it.

Anyway, the idea of putting the focus on power, and then doing some submaximal barbell grinds in the 8-12 rep range, makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe something like this:

• Main power lift:
  • KB swings, snatches or barbell power cleans.
  • Quick and Dead, Aerobic and Alactic or Axe come to mind as programs.
• Complementary barbell work:
  • 3x10 back squat, submaximal (let's say with 14 RM)
  • 3x10 bench, ditto
  • Maybe some pull ups

To be repeated 3 times a week.

Any thoughts?

Sounds perfect -- for strength training worked into a bigger context of other training or sports performance. It's a lot like what I'm doing right now and for the next 5 months, with endurance cycling (bike riding) as my main activity, and strength sessions like this 2-3x/week.

I wouldn't say it's the best formula for building strength, but not everyone needs to build strength, especially if they are pushing forward in other ways. So while it may increase muscle size or push up 1RM strength, it will help maintain and perhaps improve the use of those type II muscle fibers while supporting other goals.

 

[LukeV]

Rugby Union, also known as the sprinting race to a wrestling match, is not as stop/start as most collision sports and has the potential for longer periods of continuous play than, say, the code variant Rugby League (which Sonny Bill also excelled at) or American football because successfully tackling the ball-carrier does not in itself cause a stoppage. I mention that because carrying too much bulk can be a big issue and it’s common for players, particularly the big men, to actually slim down rather than bulk up, such as in the process of resurrecting stalled or declining careers. From my limited exposure to elite level players, yes, whatever reps they were doing were likely to be explosive but I didn’t see a lot of Olympic style lifting or 3x10 hypertrophy work, never saw a kettlebell, but an enormous amount of simple hybrid style programming like 531, Greyskull etc

 

[Hung]

if you haven't put much time into barbell lift, I suggest still using submax weight but with lower rep (3-6) with Like 6-8 RM for sets of (3-5).
My reason is it's kinda hard to keep form with higher rep; plus the weight isn't heavy enough.
But of course, a few weeks of higher rep isn't going to kill any body.

 

[Antti]

It's a standard practice to do more explosive movements first in a session and grinds afterwards.

When it comes to the grinds, I would think a Westside stylish speed/dynamic effort session would be better than the long straight sets. We can call them clusters with compensatory acceleration training. In the same time it would take you to do 3*10, do 6*5 or 10*3. Your rep quality will be much better and with the reduced rest periods, you will fatigue your motor units.

 

[3letterslong]

Pat Flynn has a workout template I love, 4 times per week:

1 Power Exercise (low rep)
3-4 Strength Exercises (low rep)
12-15 minutes conditioning

For the last 4 months I've been doing this format, but have been using contrast training for the strength exercises and have been absolutely loving the results. Also, Flynn prescribes HIIT for the conditioning, but I've been giving myself rest breaks so it's like a dirty A+A.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

focused on power, alongside barbell grinds, which were rather light.

Strength Is The Foundation

Strength is the Foundation for Power and Speed Development.

Novice Lifter initially increase Power and Speed by increasing Strength.

Advance Lifter need to maintain Strength Training with Heavy Load as a mean of increasing Power and Speed.

KB swings, snatches or barbell power cleans.

Power Movements

Kettlebell Swings and Olympic Movement are Power Movement; provided the right Training Percentage are used.

Information regarding the Training Percentage has been previously posted.

A quick sny0psis is..

1) Kettebells Swings

One third of Body Weight Loads and higher.

2) Olympic Movement

70-80% of 1 Repetition Max

Light Grinds

This isn't optimally effective as a means of increasing Strength for Power.

Complementary barbell work:

• 3x10 back squat, submaximal (let's say with 14 RM)
• 3x10 bench,

Hypertrophy Training

This program falls into Hypertrophy Training, as you know.

Hypertrophy need be a part of a well formulates Strength Training Program.

However, the downside of Hypertrophy Training (with out Strength Training) is the a decrease in Maximum Strength, Power and Speed decrease.,

Any thoughts?

Maximum Strength Training

using contrast training for the strength exercises

Contrast Training

How are you defining this?

This term has multiple meanings.

 

[3letterslong]

Contrast Training

How are you defining this?

This term has multiple meanings.

Using your formula: 1 or 2 reps with 80%+ of 1RM, 15s break, followed by a power version of the move with 50%RM. It really works well for my body. I have to estimate because I'm using loaded calisthenics, but what I'm doing is giving me excellent results.

Funny story, your contrast training article about 20 years ago was what I used for the first serious sports training I ever did. Then I found it on the web and used it again, then the website disappeared and I thought it was gone forever. Then I realized the person on Strongfirst who's always teaching people about Contrast Training was the same guy who wrote that original article that turned me onto Contrast Training!

I definitely appreciate your input on these forums, man!

 

[silveraw]

Sets of 6-10 have certainly helped me break through many strength plateaus. I wouldn't stay there long term, but raising your 10RM does wonders for your 5RM which has a good carryover to 1RM.

I'm more in the camp that the strength - hypertrophy continuum is less binary than popularly believed.

Recently my overhead press has been stagnant. I added 5 sets of 8-10. within 2 weeks, my 5RM increased 3%. I anticipate I'll realize those gains as a new 1rm at the end of the cycle.

I also recover from those 5 sets of 10 a lot better than I recover from 5 singles.

 

[Hung]

Sets of 6-10 have certainly helped me break through many strength plateaus. I wouldn't stay there long term, but raising your 10RM does wonders for your 5RM which has a good carryover to 1RM.

I'm more in the camp that the strength - hypertrophy continuum is less binary than popularly believed.

Recently my overhead press has been stagnant. I added 5 sets of 8-10. within 2 weeks, my 5RM increased 3%. I anticipate I'll realize those gains as a new 1rm at the end of the cycle.

I also recover from those 5 sets of 10 a lot better than I recover from 5 singles.

I agree with most of this, but in the original post, the weight is 14RM. I don't think it's heavy enough to stimulate adaptation we want to get/complement the ballistic exercises.

I will throw my number in: I did pull 200 kg conventional in the past. Last week I pull 145 kg for sets of 4/5 and I was out of breath. If I really need to hit 14RM I'm not sure I hit 100 kg. And I swing 36 kg for set of 10 explosively. So now my swing number and dl number doesn't very different. What kind of adaptation would I have if doing that?

 

[silveraw]

but in the original post, the weight is 14RM.

Bro.
You know I just skim these things.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Using your formula: 1 or 2 reps with 80%+ of 1RM, 15s break, followed by a power version of the move with 50%RM. It really works well for my body. I have to estimate because I'm using loaded calisthenics, but what I'm doing is giving me excellent results.

Funny story, your contrast training article about 20 years ago was what I used for the first serious sports training I ever did. Then I found it on the web and used it again, then the website disappeared and I thought it was gone forever. Then I realized the person on Strongfirst who's always teaching people about Contrast Training was the same guy who wrote that original article that turned me onto Contrast Training.

Post Activation Potentiation Training, PAP

Yea, 1-2 Reps with 80% Plus followed by a Power or Speed Movement is PAP.

My training revolves around it.

Just to break it down...

1) Complex Training

The 1 Repetition PAP Strength Movement is a different Exercise from the Power Movement.

Example

Heavy Incline Press for 80% Plus for Strength Movement

Power Bench Press with 48-62% of 1 Repetition Max

2) Contrast Training

Both the Strength and Power Exercise are the same.

What separates them is the Training Percentages.

3) French Contrast Training

This involves four (4) different movement for the same muscle groups.

a) Strength Movement

2) Power Movement

3) Speed Movement

4) Over Speed Movement

Nice know you got something out of that article and it working for you.

 

[Oscar]

@Anna C @silveraw @Kenny Croxdale @Antti @Hung @3letterslong
Thanks all for the replies!

I think I forgot to add that this would be in the context of other specific sport training, like Anna pointed out (like in the case of Sonny Bill Williams who played rugby, so this was complementary).

So my thought is like this: If you do lets say, 24 sets of 5 reps of kettlebell snatches with a challenging weight, you are pretty much done for the day. So doing the light squats and benches would be to keep the pattern, maybe add some hypertrophy, and move the blood. The bulk of the training was the snatch session.

@LukeV I also saw mostly heavy barbell work with rugby players, but sometimes up to 7-8 reps. Probably to add some hypertrophy. This is why this scheme for Sonny Bill Williams was surprising to me. Maybe the guy was so big already weighting about 108 kg, that he was better off training power rather than strength and size.

 

[LukeV]

@LukeV I also saw mostly heavy barbell work with rugby players, but sometimes up to 7-8 reps. Probably to add some hypertrophy. This is why this scheme for Sonny Bill Williams was surprising to me. Maybe the guy was so big already weighting about 108 kg, that he was better off training power rather than strength and size.

It might also depend a lot on whether you’re looking in the playing or the off season. In the playing season, the emphasis is on recovery from match day so weights training (in fact all training ancillary to football itself) is often quite light. In fact, visitors to the club facilities during the playing season are often surprised by how little and how relaxed the “training” is that is actually being done. Well with often six (and sometimes five) days between matches and time spent travelling there isn’t actually a lot of time to do much other than recover from match day intensity and practice tactics

 

[Hung]

So my thought is like this: If you do lets say, 24 sets of 5 reps of kettlebell snatches with a challenging weight, you are pretty much done for the day. So doing the light squats and benches would be to keep the pattern, maybe add some hypertrophy, and move the blood. The bulk of the training was the snatch session.

if the ballistic is the main dish I would program so the grinds to support that.
Maybe 5-10 rep squat/deadlift with heavy weight but low RPE/fairly explosive at begin of the session to prime the glutes/hamstring/quads before the swing/snatch. I expect that would helps the snatch generate more power so we do have to do all 24 sets after that.

 

[puddleduck]

Rugby Union, also known as the sprinting race to a wrestling match, is not as stop/start as most collision sports and has the potential for longer periods of continuous play than, say, the code variant Rugby League (which Sonny Bill also excelled at) or American football because successfully tackling the ball-carrier does not in itself cause a stoppage. I mention that because carrying too much bulk can be a big issue and it’s common for players, particularly the big men, to actually slim down rather than bulk up, such as in the process of resurrecting stalled or declining careers. From my limited exposure to elite level players, yes, whatever reps they were doing were likely to be explosive but I didn’t see a lot of Olympic style lifting or 3x10 hypertrophy work, never saw a kettlebell, but an enormous amount of simple hybrid style programming like 531, Greyskull etc

Had the good fortune to train in the same gym as Andrew Sheridan when he played (plus a load of others but he stood out) and he seemed to follow some basic powerlifting template. Lots of good mornings, squats, weighted dips and chins and various bench press variants. Was ridiculously strong. I was powerlifting at the time and he was stronger than any of the guys I lifted with (all amateur of course, but some big strong lads still by any measure).


Edit: I just googled him and he had near elite level PL numbers so I definitely didn’t imagine this