Other/Mixed Need help coming up with a 4-5 day/week program

[OldAndWeak]

Hey all - I started running 5 years ago after sitting in front of a computer since I was 7 or 8, no prior sports or athletic stuff at all. Helped me lower my weight and body fat, but I need to stop running soon (doctor's orders for ankle and knees), and I want to get stronger + leaner.

My stats - 44, 150lbs, hover between 13-14% body fat, not strong at all. Doing get-ups and presses with a 16kg, I can squat a little more. Can do 1, maybe 2 chin-ups on a good day and ZERO pull-ups.

Joined a gym, they've got all the equipment you could want - futzed around for 18 months and never knew how to progress in any online program or JeFit routine I'd lock onto, and don't have a spotter for barbell work (got myself pinned under the bench press once, switched to dumbbell ever since). 6 months ago I joined the group training, it's a combination of strength and HIIT endurance work. Turns out the trainers are all SFG certified. Love me some kettlebells now, I really enjoy swings and snatches, and how hard it works my cardio.

Due to schedule, I'll probably have to quit the group training, but it's been helping me get stronger in some stuff, not at others. Concerns of mine:

- Can't get stronger on get-ups or presses, been stuck at 16kg for a long time. We typically do 5 reps each side, once a week.
- Pull-ups - I can't do one. This makes me mad.
- Rowing machine - I can run a 5k and more, but have no endurance for this. I can give you 500m in 2mins or so, and that's it.
- Core - REALLY weak. Older ladies in class can beat me on mountain climbers, planks, etc.
- Deadlifts - Max is 205, routinely doing 5x5's around 155 or 165 lbs. Can't get any higher.

Overall, I think I need back, shoulder and core work to progress at all of the above. I'm intrigued by TTKC and/or S&S but want to figure out how to program something where I'm making slow and regular progress at all of the above, versus picking a couple things and ignoring the rest for months to come, just to keep me motivated. I think the problem with the group training class is, like CrossFit, we're doing bits of lots of things and I'm not really getting stronger at almost anything.

Ideally, I'd spend 45 mins at the gym, mixing it up with strength, core, pull-ups (eventually?), and rowing to replace running. My new schedule will likely allow me to get there 4-5 days a week consistently, but not when I can get a friend to spot. Would love some advice from the community here, perhaps a way to mix in some other stuff with S&S or TTKC to start with?

 

[fractal]

sounds like S&S plus some longer walks would suit. I think it's generally better to focus on a couple of movements in a proven program until you reach a milestone, then apply the carryover to your next goal. I'm sure your getups will improve if you hit them 4+ times per week (assuming technique is sound) and this will give you a base to press from.

I'd suggest S&S followed by 3-5 singles on chins or GTG. Once you are comfortable with 24kg and 4-5 chins or pullups, you can switch to ROP with pullups. Or just continue on to the simple standard. Hope that helps

 

[Bret S.]

Hey all - I started running 5 years ago after sitting in front of a computer since I was 7 or 8, no prior sports or athletic stuff at all. Helped me lower my weight and body fat, but I need to stop running soon (doctor's orders for ankle and knees), and I want to get stronger + leaner.

Hello OaW, what is the reason the doc is telling you not to run? If you're having joint and other chronic irritation issues from running and it's not something else then it's fixable if you want to continue to run, or walking may be a better option. Check out a book by Kelly Starrett called 'Ready to Run', I'm working on this too as I want to run without problems.

I really enjoy swings and snatches, and how hard it works my cardio.

This will save you and make you strong I think.

- Can't get stronger on get-ups or presses, been stuck at 16kg for a long time. We typically do 5 reps each side, once a week.
- Pull-ups - I can't do one. This makes me mad.
- Rowing machine - I can run a 5k and more, but have no endurance for this. I can give you 500m in 2mins or so, and that's it.
- Core - REALLY weak. Older ladies in class can beat me on mountain climbers, planks, etc.
- Deadlifts - Max is 205, routinely doing 5x5's around 155 or 165 lbs. Can't get any higher.

Ideally, I'd spend 45 mins at the gym, mixing it up with strength, core, pull-ups (eventually?), and rowing to replace running. My new schedule will likely allow me to get there 4-5 days a week consistently

I agree with @fractal that you could benefit from consistent practice of S&S for all around base strength, at least 3 times/wk. Adding deadlifting ala PTTP will harden you further.
Start there and later add in using a band to assist in pullups and do those daily in a GTG format.
You don't need 'complicated' to get strong, just practice strength consistently and you'll be stronger, it's really no more complicated than that, start simply and consistently, later you can tweak your routine once you establish a good solid base of strength.

I may be going out on a limb here but I have to say it, think strong = be strong, you're not old (I'm 59) from my perspective. The handle you've chosen does not reflect the mindset of what you want to do, unless you use it as a motivator to not be OaW.
If not being able to do one pullup makes you mad that's really good, it means you have strong spirit inside and you can use that to help you achieve your goals.
I hope I haven't offended you by bringing this up, I operate from a martial arts mindset so I notice clues people give regarding their own. Power to you and best of luck with your training.

 

[Tuebor]

Old and weak... we need to work on your positive self talk. Maybe Aged and hungry.

Al Ciampa has a PT Manual which I believe does a better job at explaining to the new than Simple and Sinister ( heresy I know) both are great. Al's goes into more depth of programming corrective warmups and giving more variety of movements, plus adds a few extra points to programming. @aciampa ... contact him to order if you so choose.

As for your training, if you are self motivated and like to train alone hit the basic program. S&S or ciampa's would fill this. If you choose s&s add in pullups between your getup sets 2x a week (even a jump up negative down single will stimulate your muscles productively at this point) and on the rest of the days hit inverted rows. I like to program these to higher reps 10-20 and change your leverage to make easier or harder.

If you enjoy the group training model, find a gym that has group classes and trudge along till you gain some knowledge and proficiency. Problem with group classes is they are designed mostly to help the weaker of the class, great at first but not for the long term.

Being newer to training think consistency over intensity. Daily practice will glean you more results than 1x a week of balls to the wall.

 

[OldAndWeak]

Hey guys - thanks for the advice so far! This is great! And don't stress my username, that's just to be silly. While I feel weak compared to where I want to be, I'm also the strongest and fittest of my life, and am proud of my improvements thus far.

Running/Rowing - I COULD keep doing it but it's starting to bother my knees more and more, and I get pretty bored on the treadmill so Im planning ahead for the winter months. I want to start building up rowing endurance ANYWAY, I like the sweat it gives me and how hard my heart's working.

I'm thinking something like this, what do you guys think?

MON = S&S + pullups + row
TUES = S&S + 3x5 deadlift
WED = S&S + pullups + row
THURS = S&S + 3x5 deadlifts
FRI = S&S + pullups + row
SAT/SUN = OFF

Deadlifting -> I'm thinking I'd keep it at 60-70% of my 1-rep-max for the first couple of weeks. Maybe grow that slowly (throw another 5 lbs on each side after 2 weeks, again after 2 more weeks, nice and slow).

Rowing -> I'm thinking I'd start with 1x500m the first week, then 2x500m the second week, 3x500m the third week, etc. I don't know if I'll grow that linearly but I can try and see where I'm at in 1 month. Goal would be maybe 10x500m if I can work up the endurance for it, so I get a solid 20-min or so cardio 3x/week.

S&S -> Am I kidding myself if I think I'll be able to handle 5x/week? Maybe skip Wednesdays?

Pull-ups -> I'm really not sure if the band is helping me - I'm thinking start with my 1-2 chin-ups I can do and work the negatives, or did any of you get up to pull-ups by doing them on the band? I can do band-assisted pulls and then work those negatives, I did those today and really took my time on the descents.

Final Question -> Am I missing out by not finding time to get in kettlebell presses, or does the get-up take care of that handily for me? I'm having trouble moving up on get-up weight in the press / stand-up portion, and I've always felt weak in the shoulders and upper-back muscles, but I'm thinking practice more than 1x/week is really all I need to keep working on this, and then that'll take care of my press needs. I can also do dedicated shoulder kettlebell presses, but I'm trying to keep the overall time-per-day down to something I can actually accomplish and get over to work on time.

Thanks!

 

[Deleted member 5559]

Really strong people generally perform the big three power lifts. S&S is a great program but there is a point when you want to focus on moving really heavy stuff in simple patterns in order to move moderately heavy stuff in more complex patterns. With a gym with all the bells and whistles, why restrict yourself to programs designed around minimalism. Do something like Starting Strength, Easy Strength or 5/3/1 for a while.

Alternatively, visit the Soju and Tuba article and apply that concept to presses, squats, and deadlifts. Then do very easy cardio (below MAF heart rate) the two days between strength days and an interval running/rowing day once every other week on the weekend or when you can fit in an extra day.

 

[OldAndWeak]

Really strong people generally perform the big three power lifts. S&S is a great program but there is a point when you want to focus on moving really heavy stuff in simple patterns in order to move moderately heavy stuff in more complex patterns. With a gym with all the bells and whistles, why restrict yourself to programs designed around minimalism. Do something like Starting Strength, Easy Strength or 5/3/1 for a while.

Alternatively, visit the Soju and Tuba article and apply that concept to presses, squats, and deadlifts. Then do very easy cardio (below MAF heart rate) the two days between strength days and an interval running/rowing day once every other week on the weekend or when you can fit in an extra day.

Hey dude, thanks for the advice! I'm not against doing another program, but I'm interested in S&S precisely because I tried Starting Strength on my own, and didn't progress or succeed with the barbell compared to the way I did with kettlebells. I also don't want to get under a bench press or into the squat rack without a spotter until I build more confidence+general strength, and don't have that option most days. I like how if I'm doing kettlebells, HIIT, tabata or bodyweight stuff, I can at least bail if I over-do it and always feel safe even if I'm pushing hard.

 

[OldAndWeak]

I also hadn't heard of Easy Strength until just now, and this sounds really interesting, maybe right up my alley. Interested to hear what would be a better place to start, perhaps switch out S&S for Easy Strength instead, in my suggested routine above, and then the pull-ups are already covered and I'm just adding the row machine work I want to do?

 

[Anna C]

MON = S&S + pullups + row
TUES = S&S + 3x5 deadlift
WED = S&S + pullups + row
THURS = S&S + 3x5 deadlifts
FRI = S&S + pullups + row
SAT/SUN = OFF

Welcome...

Yes, I would say this is too much S&S if you're really doing the program. If you're just going through the motions quickly with a light kettlebell, then that's different, and you can do other stuff... but it's not doing the program.

That said, I like your outline above as it relates to your stated goals, so if you want to do all those things I would just do S&S 3 days per week. But with that in mind, how challenging are the pullups, rows, and deadlifts? If they too are just light, it won't be too much... but then, you're not likely to progress as well as you could that way either.

The key is to train by giving your body a dose of stress that it CAN recover from in order to train well again in the next session where you need to use that capability, and for that stress to be ENOUGH to stimulate an adaptation of greater capability and strength. Too much stress (and/or not enough recovery), and you won't progress. Not enough stress and you won't progress. Too many different things (i.e. a different thing every day of the week) and you won't build on each adaptation as you recover and get stronger; in that case you're just chasing too many rabbits.

You did mention your age and weight and BF%, but didn't say if you'd like to change bodywieght or body composition. Did you have any thoughts on that? Nutrition needs to be paired with your training to meet your goals.

Just some ideas, hope that helps...

 

[North Coast Miller]

Looking at the proposed program there are no squats. There is also no horizontal press or pushup variation.

I would look at getting into pullups as a accessory lift of sorts, working the eccentric at first, and do some rowing, and by that I mean bent rows or Tbar rows. These have good carry over to pullups. Once you can get a few pullups they can sub out for other upper body pull movements. Trying to use them for training before you can even hit one is liable to make for poor use of time.

I'd be temped to do S&S 2x a week and on the other 3 days work a mix of push/hinge, pull/squat every other, to give yourself plenty of recoup time per while still getting good volume.

 

[Bret S.]

Looks like mostly pulling in the training plan you listed, maybe do:

MON = S&S then double bell front squats
TUES = S&S + 3x5 deadlift ( @70%)
WED = OS crawling/resets and L sit + dips/ring holds
(builds sub scapular strength)
THURS =S&S then chinups + pushups (supersets x 3)
FRI = S&S + 3x5 front squats (double bells, work up to 5x5) + carries after squats.
SAT/SUN = OFF

This is just an example, you can switch things around a bit but this hits hinge, squat, push ,pull, carry..
Do chinups regularly and when strong enough reverse one hand, then the other until you can do the pullups.

It's alot of volume so you may want to do less initially or drop 1 or 2 days of S&S. You can also cut down the density and do an ABA BAB type schedule.
Not knowing you or what you can handle I would say start slow and build up volume gradually in whatever you do. Another important point is sleep and nutrition, be sure to eat enough protein/veggies and some carbs. You will get stronger with repetition.

You'll also have to figure in aerobic work..

 

[Oscar]

Hi @OldAndWeak , welcome!

It looks like you are doing a lot of exercises and stuck at all of them, and at a relatively low level. For instance, if you cant TGU more than 16 kg, its not likely that you will military press more than that. You are doing the exercise 1/week, so its unlikely to make progress. Why dont you choose a few exercises and get good at those? If your focus is to get strong, go for a barbell program like @Bro Mo suggested. If you like kettlebells, just focus on S&S for a while, focusing on progressing those exercises. You can play around with the other exercises if you have spare time, but keeping it easy and not worrying on progress.

You say you are not confident doing barbell stuff without a spotter. Doesnt your gym have benches or squat racks with safeties? That should let you work on your own.

It is not easy to design a program, unless you are very experienced. You will probably progress better following a written program like S&S or a barbell program, or have one of the SFG design a program for you.

Good luck!

 

[vegpedlr]

S&S, Easy Strength, or the DMPM

Pick one and stick with it 4-5 days a week for a few weeks. Add a couple days of MAF endurance. Then switch it up if you want to. Or not.

 

[ali]

It looks like etk would fit very nicely. You have 2 days of rest/variety/wriggle room.

 

[OldAndWeak]

Thanks all for the continued suggestions, this is great! Really impressed by the community! And to answer the question, I would love to improve my body composition and lower my body fat down to 12% or so, but I'm having a tough time getting any better on the diet (vegetarian, not a ton of time to cook high-protein multiple times a day), so I do the best I can.

I read up alot on Easy Strength, not having heard of it until it was mentioned above, and I agree that does seem to hit a few more areas I want to progress with, and I get the points about not overdoing it with S&S.

I found this sample Easy Strength routine, that prescribes 3 getups per-side and a squat - The 40 Days of Movement Challenge (this has apparently been called out as ripping off and not clearly attributing itself to Easy Strength) - be that as it may, it looks like it might hit a wide variety of stuff, get me started on a path, and hit a lot of the stuff missing in my earlier ideas above (core, squats, etc.). I'm thinking for the pull I would do bent over rows or on a bench, and would see if I could still find any time to get on my rowing machine as well. Seem like I'm headed in the right direction? Thanks all!

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I also don't want to get under a bench press or into the squat rack without a spotter until I build more confidence+general strength, and don't have that option most days.

You don't need to pigeon hole yourself into bench press and back squats. You can perform standing military presses, floor presses, front squats, zercher squats, smith machine squats (if you face the right direction give you a full heavy squat pattern too). We all avoid the stuff we're not good at and gravitate toward what we are good at...just make it a conscious decision rather than an excuse (meant very benevolently).

 

[vegpedlr]

Re: Vegetarian Diet Tweaks

Calorie Density is the key. Lower the energy density while maintaining satiety. Check out Jeff Novick’s resources via lectures and articles for more.

 

[fractal]

Re: Vegetarian Diet Tweaks

Calorie Density is the key. Lower the energy density while maintaining satiety. Check out Jeff Novick’s resources via lectures and articles for more.

To this point and beyond, consider cutting out or greatly reducing your dairy intake