Kettlebell Neural drive and endurance

[Dayz]

This might be an overly technical, scientific kind of question.

A lot of literature shows that strength training improves endurance performance in some situations, albeit with a minimal dose. (the famous example Pavel cites in Q&D was endurance athletes improving their time to exhaustion after following a 4x4 squat protocol with endurance training vs a control group that only did the endurance training).

It's generally thought the reason for such improvements is increased 'neural drive', ie ability of central nervous system to send a strong signal for a muscular contraction. As an explosive strength program, or power endurance program, Q&D is designed to improve neural drive.

My question is: how specific does the movement have to be to translate the neural drive benefit to endurance sports? Will snatching or Swinging improve neural drive for the purposes of say, cycling? (My sport). Or would another movement, like a lower body pushing movement, be better?

 

[watchnerd]

Rating-coding adaptations are highly specific.

That's why technique pollution can be a problem.

As for cycling, I don't see how hip hinge movements would help much. There is not really much hinging in cycling. Rowing, on the other hand...

All the cyclists I've trained alongside used quad dominant movements - high bar back squats, front squats, leg presses.

It's so prevalent that the most quad dominant squat one can do (cyclist squat) is named after cyclists.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I agree with @watchnerd

Obviously I am not an expert, but I think that if we want to increase the neural drive for a specifc sport, while performing strength training, I think we have to use - if possible - roughly the same muscle group, roughly the same way.

For example, a kb swing training can be interesting for a sprinter or a jumper (or any sport which require jumping).

For the cycling you mention, +1 @watchnerd

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[offwidth]

Yes quads are put to the test in cycling. (Mine were working overtime this morning...)
But non-cyclists might be surprised at how much the hips and lower back are in play.

And mountain biking has other requirements that folks like @vegpedlr can attest to...

 

[Anna C]

Training is specific, but it's not that specific.

As you train the posterior chain, the whole body is getting the benefits, especially those related to energy production, cardio-respiratory function, lactate "sink" of bigger aerobic base and more mitochondria, ability to absorb training stress and recover, etc. (Anecdotally, I felt an improvement in some aspects of my bike riding from A+A. I felt an improvement in others from heavy squats. Both also had their costs relative to more bike-specific training, though).

So often the question of "will X improve Y?" needs to be put into a more specific context. Will X improve Y better than doing nothing? Yes. Will X improve Y better than xY (something more related to Y) will improve Y? Likely not, but not necessarily. Will a great X training program improve Y better than a so-so xY training program? Probably so. Will X improve Y better than xY if my xzy function is my biggest constraint? It very well might. Etc...

I think snatching and swinging improves bike riding, generally speaking. Especially in the beginning stages, because it tends to fill some gaps that a cyclist might have. After that, maybe, but power intervals on the bike or something more specific is going to give more bang for the buck, training-wise, as far as neural drive and other adaptations. Basically it depends if you want to specialize your performance ability, or become more generally fit.

 

[vegpedlr]

+1 to @offwidth and -1 to the rest of you! (Just kidding)

There is a lot more hip hinging than people think. This becomes apparent when the quads begin to fatigue. Driving from the hips is especially important when climbing with its low cadence and high tension. But it can be tricky to get used to, as sitting on a saddle can put the glutes to sleep like elsewhere in life.

Back to the OP, Road cycling or MTB? The two are quite different. For road riding I don’t think KB ballistics are very specific, and therefore, probably not that beneficial for performance. BUT, the locked in position a road bike demands makes getting out of the box difficult, and KBs are brilliant for that sort of cross training. So indirectly they would help.

MTB is an entirely different animal. Actually, a zoo of different animals. XC, DH, or enduro? The kind of terrain you ride, how technical and rough changes the dynamics a lot. I’ve ridden dirt roads and easy trails not much different in feeling to road riding, and rock crawled at a walking pace on super techy “trails” in Moab. KB ballistics have been absolutely brilliant for me. Learning and training that quick snappy hip hinge is what MTB is all about. You’re constantly needing to get out of the saddle quickly and harness that momentum to get around obstacles.

ETA

I haven’t trained the snatch, though I suspect it would be really good as it’s the direct opposite of the bike position. Explosive, posterior chain with a big anterior stretch. If you learn to pedal from the hips these are great moves.

My MTB game changers:
C+P+FSQ any implement
Swings
Loaded carries

Just my .02c but since I really suck, probably more like wooden nickels., after the termites. Hopefully others will chime in.

 

[Bauer]

This might be an overly technical, scientific kind of question.

A lot of literature shows that strength training improves endurance performance in some situations, albeit with a minimal dose. (the famous example Pavel cites in Q&D was endurance athletes improving their time to exhaustion after following a 4x4 squat protocol with endurance training vs a control group that only did the endurance training).

It's generally thought the reason for such improvements is increased 'neural drive', ie ability of central nervous system to send a strong signal for a muscular contraction. As an explosive strength program, or power endurance program, Q&D is designed to improve neural drive.

My question is: how specific does the movement have to be to translate the neural drive benefit to endurance sports? Will snatching or Swinging improve neural drive for the purposes of say, cycling? (My sport). Or would another movement, like a lower body pushing movement, be better?

Have you listened to the podcast with Peter Park? He discusses training Lance Armstrong and Moto Cross racers and how he uses 033 with pro athletes.

Podcast Episode #05: Peter Park | StrongFirst

Guest: Peter Park, personal trainer of high-level athletes and celebrities, and author of the book Rebound. He talks buring fat for fuel, building an aerobic base, and how power training is key for endurance athletes.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[kurt perham]

N=1 here.
I have a 43yo Elite MTB athlete (2nd in the NUE series) I coach, on a focused winter lifting program. Mostly barbell based but a few KB ballistics too.

What he has noticed is more "strength reserve" at the end of a 4-6 hour ride he can stay seated and "punch it". He had never done focused strength work but embraced it this winter and now with C19 he has continued it.

 

[patterner]

It depends on your goals, but strength is a general adaptation (probably *the* general adaptation). I think if you took someone with a back squat of 135 up to 405, you'd see better performance than someone doing other squat variations at a lower level of weight despite the fact that they were more "quad emphasized". The difference comes between training the strength and practicing for the sport. Both are necessary, but as @watchnerd mentioned above you don't want the training of strength to look too much like the expression of the skill, otherwise you'll get technique pollution. That's why you don't see Lebron practicing with a 30 pound basketball as his "strength routine".

A useful article (though I don't agree with everything Rip says, this seems to be on the money to me): The Two-Factor Model of Sports Performance | Mark Rippetoe

 

[IMayAgainKnowChris]

Training is specific, but it's not that specific.

Learned that after 2 months of S and S and my pull-ups going from 1 to FIVE. WTH.

 

[watchnerd]

but strength is a general adaptation (probably *the* general adaptation).

The research trend these days is that thinking is not nearly as true as people thought.

"Strength is a skill" has implicit specificity implications.

Hypertrophy, on the other hand, is more generalized.

 

[watchnerd]

Learned that after 2 months of S and S and my pull-ups going from 1 to FIVE. WTH.

Your muscles got bigger.

Strength has two variables = skill / neural + hypertrophy

A bigger muscle + fixed neural adaptation = more strength than smaller muscle + fixed neural adaptation.

 

[watchnerd]

There is a lot more hip hinging than people think. This becomes apparent when the quads begin to fatigue. Driving from the hips is especially important when climbing with its low cadence and high tension

I mean...you have hip / glute drive when you squat, too.

That doesn't turn it into a hinge.

Hip hinge implies load at the end of a lever arm with the hips as the fulcrum.

Popping wheelies would be a hip hinge.

 

[vegpedlr]

N=1 here.
I have a 43yo Elite MTB athlete (2nd in the NUE series) I coach, on a focused winter lifting program. Mostly barbell based but a few KB ballistics too.

What he has noticed is more "strength reserve" at the end of a 4-6 hour ride he can stay seated and "punch it". He had never done focused strength work but embraced it this winter and now with C19 he has continued it.

From the way back of the pack, that’s been my experience too. For a few years I followed Maffetone’s Method as laid out in his Big Book. In it he cautions against any anaerobic training, including strength work. My aerobic fitness progressed just as advertised, but lack of strength was holding me back on trails.

Strengthening the hip hinge pattern was a game changer. The squat pattern is helpful, but the stress on the quads interferes with bike and run training.

 

[vegpedlr]

Popping wheelies would be a hip hinge.

That movement is crucial to MTB, even if your front wheel never leaves the ground.

 

[patterner]

The research trend these days is that thinking is not nearly as true as people thought.

"Strength is a skill" has implicit specificity implications.

Hypertrophy, on the other hand, is more generalized.

Interesting, though I don't think we're really saying anything different. There are different components to strength, including the skill, neural adaptation, etc. but as you mentioned (with a slight change) skill + neural + hypertrophy is the actual equation...but you can't substitute one for the other (beyond certain limits), and the thing is, neural adaptation comes along for the ride with strength increase whereas the skill part is practiced as part of the sports practice. I don't think we state that skill and neural adaptation go together.

 

[kurt perham]

From the way back of the pack, that’s been my experience too. For a few years I followed Maffetone’s Method as laid out in his Big Book. In it he cautions against any anaerobic training, including strength work. My aerobic fitness progressed just as advertised, but lack of strength was holding me back on trails.

Strengthening the hip hinge pattern was a game changer. The squat pattern is helpful, but the stress on the quads interferes with bike and run training.

Yea we dont follow the MAF plan much, but we adjusted overall load early in the season (when races might happen) to account for strength as 1 of his "quality" days. We always actually did them on a Interval or bike quality day. High load, low reps. 3 sets. So he got the CNS boost but we used the rep continuum to get the strength and power gains we wanted.

We might have weened off a bit...but races are canceled, for the most part.

 

[Dayz]

Thank you everyone, so many great replies. I love having access to such a knowledgeable community!

After reading the advice here, I have decided not to run Q&D but to aim for something a bit more sport specific. I am going to spend 10-12 weeks running a two-weekly program that focuses on the 'big 5' movement patterns, a la Dan John. Funnily enough, this is exactly what a lot of top strength coaches recommend in the cycling world - a squat, a hinge, a push, a pull, a carry (sometimes #5 is listed as heavy abs or rotation/anti rotation). I only have kettlebells and no gym access, so have chosen the following:

1. Bulgarian Split Squats - 3 x 5
2. Swing - 3 x 10
3. Push-up - 3 x 15
4. Chin-up - 3 x 10
5. Not sure. Maybe some carries, like uneven farmers walks, suitcase, racked carry, waiter's walk? Or some ab circuit?

The BSS will be the main strength move I'll be trying to drive upwards. Everything else is for rounding out athleticism/musculature/filling gaps

Thoughts on this plan?

 

[offwidth]

Similar in nature to some of the strength routines outlined in Training for the New Alpinism and Uphill Athlete.
I think you will be good with it...
(do the ab circuit...)

 

[Anna C]

Thoughts on this plan?

I like it!

I think you could get a lot of the Q&D benefits concurrently, if you do the exercises you've listed in sort of a Q&D format. No need to get too particular about it... maybe just experimenting with the set/repeat/series timing, and being intentionally explosive with the reps when you can.

Let us know how it goes! Would this be 3x/week?

Or some ab circuit?

Yeah, I'd go for abs. Hollow hold, hardstyle sitback, weighted Russian twists, hanging leg raise, V-ups... They're good to do last, IMO.