Other/Mixed New to HIIT; Need advice on hiking and visceral fat.

[John K]

I claim no science and no accuracy in my description, just relating what my perception of my experience was and is. Your mileage may vary. A google just now on "is belly fat visceral fat?" was, IMO, inconclusive.

I am under the impression that my belly is visceral fat and not merely subcutaneous fat.

Visceral fat is under the muscle and around the organs. There is also a "sack of fat" called the omentum between your ab muscles and your intestines, which from my understanding can get filled up with fat and get quite hard; it is a type of visceral fat. If you have, say, a protruding stomach (a "gut") but there is not much "fluff" between your skin and your ab muscles (subcutaneous fat), then that may be due to visceral fat.

I mean, you could just have extra large organs... wouldn't be a first... I dissected a cadaver once and his heart looked like the Grinch's after he returned all the Christmas presents!

 

[Steve Freides]

I dissected a cadaver once

!!!

-S-

 

[John K]

!!!

-S-

 

[mdavis121212]

Well from my research Ive found that without an MRI an indication of visceral fat is love handles. I've been on carnivore for 9 months and although I've lost most of my subcutaneous fat I still have love handles. So I'm trying to get rid of that and long endurance hiking (15 to 20 miles in the Adirondacks) isn't doing it. So I've turned to HIIT. But I've turned my local training hikes into HIIT workouts by running all out up the steep hill until i can't continue, stop and rest a couple minutes, rinse and repeat.
The thing I've noticed is these all out workouts make me feel super pumped !

My brother has been diagnosed with fatty pancreas so I'm also trying to figure out how to help. HIIT is what keeps coming up.

 

[John K]

Well from my research Ive found that without an MRI an indication of visceral fat is love handles. I've been on carnivore for 9 months and although I've lost most of my subcutaneous fat I still have love handles. So I'm trying to get rid of that and long endurance hiking (15 to 20 miles in the Adirondacks) isn't doing it. So I've turned to HIIT. But I've turned my local training hikes into HIIT workouts by running all out up the steep hill until i can't continue, stop and rest a couple minutes, rinse and repeat.
The thing I've noticed is these all out workouts make me feel super pumped !

My brother has been diagnosed with fatty pancreas so I'm also trying to figure out how to help. HIIT is what keeps coming up.

If you are unable to continue losing fat, I would suggest you may need to eat less. Or do more. Or both.

 

[puddleduck]

Thanks this is good information! I'm currently doing Keto/Carnivore which has really helped. I was concerned when Dr Sean said that running can make visceral fat worse. But I've deduced that outdoor activities like hiking and mountain biking are very beneficial. But I've inserted HIIT into my activities a couple times a week.
I'm 70 now but feel great. Just wanted to make sure I'm heading in the right direction.
Thanks again!

He’s trying to sell you things, so view his opinions with an appropriate amount of scepticism.

 

[John K]

Well from my research Ive found that without an MRI an indication of visceral fat is love handles.

Love handles are subcutaneous fat not visceral - it is fat under the skin not between organs. Often, men can have visible abs while still complaining of “love handles.” The love handles are among the last fat deposits to be lost on a lot of men. Looking at love handles is not a good indicator of visceral fat amounts.

 

[silveraw]

HIIT is what keeps coming up.

HIIT was/is the fat loss darling 10-15 years ago and everyone was dropping steady state for HIIT.
One of the main reasons it was considered good for fat loss was something called EPOC or Excess Post-exercise Oxygen Consumption. Basically you keep burning calories at a higher rate post HIIT session...

But as time went on we learned some things and it turns out that EPOC is a real thing, but the EPOC effect was greatly overstated in pop-fitness. If you read mens health or any of the popular fitness books you would think EPOC would burn as much as running a marathon. When really it is about 10% of the calories burned in the HIIT session itself. So if you do a really hard HIIT session for 20 minutes and burn 600 calories, the EPOC effect is about 60 calories.

If you replace a 20 mile hike with a HIIT session, you are going to lose a lot in net calorie burn, meaning you have to eat even less to lose weight.

That said, there is certainly a place for both steady state and high intensity work in a long term training program. I just wouldn't expect it to work miracles. You still need to manage that caloric balance.

 

[Pete L]

AXE HIRT

Based on the information that I have read regarding AXE, it is a form of HIgh Intensity Resistance Training.

I think the R is actually Repeat in HIRT

HIIT versus HIRT - Breaking Muscle

Your feelings don’t matter! That is, your subjective feeling of the effectiveness of a workout is not important as what science tells us is important to building an impressive base of endurance and changing your body composition. A common training method is high-intensity interval training...

breakingmuscle.com

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I think the R is actually Repeat in HIRT

HIRT

Those acronyms stand for both High Repeated Training and...

High Intensity Resistance Training

https://www.technogym.com/us/newsroom/hirt-home-gym-workouts/#:~:text=The%20fundamental%20principle%20of%20HIRT,recovery%20between%20blocks%20of%20work.

What Is HIRT?

The fundamental principle of HIRT is using short, intense periods of resistance training (performed with a lot of effort and focus) plus enough recovery time between sessions. In a HIRT style session, you will do a series of strength exercises without rest, followed by a short recovery between blocks of work.

Thus, I general identify what the acronyms stand to avoid confusion.

 

[Pete L]

HIRT

Those acronyms stand for both High Repeated Training and...

High Intensity Resistance Training

https://www.technogym.com/us/newsroom/hirt-home-gym-workouts/#:~:text=The%20fundamental%20principle%20of%20HIRT,recovery%20between%20blocks%20of%20work.

What Is HIRT?

The fundamental principle of HIRT is using short, intense periods of resistance training (performed with a lot of effort and focus) plus enough recovery time between sessions. In a HIRT style session, you will do a series of strength exercises without rest, followed by a short recovery between blocks of work.

Thus, I general identify what the acronyms stand to avoid confusion.

Okay, i was intending to build on your definition to provide clarity between the two.
For the purpose of this discussion, I thought the latter definition more relevant.
I like the definition from Verkhoshansky quoted by Pavel Tsatsouline in his book Kettlebell AXE might be more beneficial;
"Verkhoshansky explains: According to the length of the rest periods between each set, two different methods may be classified: Repeat Method and Interval Method. If the rest period between sets of the exercise is of sufficient duration for the restoration of the body back to the optimal condition (that makes it possible to maintain a quality performance of the exercise), it is recognized as the Repeat Method. If the rest period between sets is not of sufficient duration for the restoration of the body back to the optimal condition, it is recognized as the Interval Method."

My layman interpretation is HIIT is "get the prescribed work done at whatever cost", while HIRT is "get the work done under prescribed conditions.".
To me both HIIT and HIRT require resistance so I was struggling to agree with your initial post.
I agree that this is why acronyms can be so problematic.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

HIIT and HIRT require resistance

High Intensity Interval Training

This is generally does not require Resistance; if you are defining Resistance as Weights, Bands, etc.

High Intensity Interval Training is usually performed with Sprints of some type; such as Running Sprints, Airdyne Bike Sprints, Rowing Sprints, etc.

High Intensity Interval Resistance Training

HIIRT (I left out the second I of it in my previous post) essentially is High Intensity Intervals that involve weighted exercise or bands. Pushing a weighted sled would fall into this category.

It is essentially Circuit Training with weights.

Cluster Set Training

Let's break this down.

A Cluster Set occurs when there is a short pause in a Repetition in an Exercise Set.

Many individual inadvertently perform a Cluster Set in their training without realize it.

In performing let's say a set of 10 Repetitions they begin to struggle with the 8th Rep. What many will do is pause (rest) for a few seconds before attempting the 9th Rep and do the same for the 10th Rep. Thus, it is a Cluster Set.

With that in mind the following fall into the category of being Cluster Sets

1) High Intensity Interval Aerobic Sprint Training

2) High Intensity Interval Resistance Training

3) High Intensity Repeat Training

Think of it like...

Strength Training

There are essentially three types.

1) Maximum Strength Training

The use of loads of 85% of 1 Repetition Max, Low Repetition of 1-5, and Long Rest Between Sets of 3 minutes or more.

2) Power Strength Training

The use of loads of 46-62% of 1 Repetition Max, Low Repetition of 1-5, and Long Rest Between Sets of 3 minutes or more.

With Olympic Movements, Power is displayed and developed with load of 70-80%.

3) Speed Strength Training

The use of loads of 10-40% of 1 Repetition Max, Low Repetition of 1-5, and Long Rest Between Sets of 3 minutes or more.

As you can what determines which Strength is being trained is the Training Percentage being used.

Strength Endurance

This term doesn't make a lot of sense.

It is an Oxymoron.


Strength and Endurance are on opposite sides.

Aerobic Capacity Intensity Cluster Set Training

Aerobic Capacity is developed with Short Rest Periods more so than Anaerobic Capacity.

The Tabata Protocol is an Example

Anaerobic Capacity Interval Clusters

Anaerobic Capacity is developed with Longer Rest Periods more so than Aerobic Capacity.

Repeat High Intensity Cluster Set Training

These Cluster Set Training Programs fall into the Repeat High Intensity Cluster Set Training.

1) Olympic Lift Cluster Set Training

Practical Application of Traditional and Cluster Set Configurations Within a Resistance Training Program

Practical Application of Traditional and Cluster Set... : Strength & Conditioning Journal

ning phase, strength and conditioning professionals need to better understand how different set configurations affect the training adaptations that result from resistance training. Traditional and cluster set structures are commonly implemented by strength and conditioning professionals as part...

journals.lww.com

Olympic Lifters have utilized this method for decades.

Cluster Set Rest Periods are kept to around 45 seconds. Dr. Greg Haff's research determined that 80% of Muscle Restoration occurred during that 45 Seconds.

2) Westside Powerlifting Dynamic Effort Training

The Westside Dynamic Effort Method utilized Cluster Set Rest Periods of 60 Seconds.

Westside is partially build on Olympic Lifter Training.

Repeat Method and Interval Method. If the rest period between sets of the exercise is of sufficient duration for the restoration of the body back to the optimal condition (that makes it possible to maintain a quality performance of the exercise), it is recognized as the Repeat Method. If the rest period between sets is not of sufficient duration for the restoration of the body back to the optimal condition, it is recognized as the Interval Method."

Cluster Set Rest Periods

The Rest Period has a lot to do with the training effect elicited from Cluster Sets.

Short Rest Period primarily increase Aerobic Capacity.

Longer Rest Periods primarily increase Anaerobic Capacity.

I have not seen any data on how much Muscle ATP Restoration occurs in 10-15 seconds.

Here's the data on the amount of Muscle ATP Restoration that takes place with...

1) 30 Seconds Rest Between Cluster

About 50% of Muscle ATP Restoration occurs.

2) 45 Second Rest Between Clusters

Right at 80% of Muscle ATP Restoration occurs.

3) 3 Minutes Plus

100% of Muscle ATP happens with three minutes or longer of Rest Between Sets; which means this method does not fall into Cluster Set Training.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Short Rest Period primarily increase Aerobic Capacity.

Longer Rest Periods primarily increase Anaerobic Capacity.

Tabata discovered this when testing his 20:10 @ 170%VO2 vs longer rest periods using even higher 200%VO2 - there was almost no aerobic adaptive response.

 

[puddleduck]

Are we talking about using resistance training to improve aerobic capacity?

What are your thoughts on the assertions that tensing muscles beyond 50% reduces blood flow and thereby blunts effectiveness of weights (other than very very low load) as a tool for this purpose?

 

[silveraw]

What are your thoughts on the assertions that tensing muscles beyond 50% reduces blood flow and thereby blunts effectiveness of weights (other than very very low load) as a tool for this purpose?

When I first got into lifting the prevailing attitude was "If it raises your HR it counts as cardio". Very Mark Rippetoe approach. So SBD were the primary form of "cardio".

It did not work well for building work capacity. It was alarmingly bad in fact.

So from personal experience, using heavy weights as the tool for conditioning didn't work very well or at all for me. I'd be very surprised to see a study support that it does.

 

[puddleduck]

Same experience as me… it was explicitly articulated by Andrew Read in his Aging Athlete book. The biology seems to make sense

 

[Antti]

Are we talking about using resistance training to improve aerobic capacity?

What are your thoughts on the assertions that tensing muscles beyond 50% reduces blood flow and thereby blunts effectiveness of weights (other than very very low load) as a tool for this purpose?

When I first got into lifting the prevailing attitude was "If it raises your HR it counts as cardio". Very Mark Rippetoe approach. So SBD were the primary form of "cardio".

It did not work well for building work capacity. It was alarmingly bad in fact.

So from personal experience, using heavy weights as the tool for conditioning didn't work very well or at all for me. I'd be very surprised to see a study support that it does.

What about the rest period, where you have an elevated heart rate but no tension on the muscles? What if you walk or do the fast & loose drills while resting?

I'd also say that there's many ways of resistance training and I wouldn't put them all under the same umbrella when it gets to conditioning. Like a heavy single gets the heart rate up, but I'd agree it doesn't do much. But a hard 10*3 on the minute? I have hard time thinking it doesn't do a thing.

 

[puddleduck]

What about the rest period, where you have an elevated heart rate but no tension on the muscles? What if you walk or do the fast & loose drills while resting?

I'd also say that there's many ways of resistance training and I wouldn't put them all under the same umbrella when it gets to conditioning. Like a heavy single gets the heart rate up, but I'd agree it doesn't do much. But a hard 10*3 on the minute? I have hard time thinking it doesn't do a thing.

Yeah I don’t know, hence asking.

 

[North Coast Miller]

What about the rest period, where you have an elevated heart rate but no tension on the muscles? What if you walk or do the fast & loose drills while resting?

I'd also say that there's many ways of resistance training and I wouldn't put them all under the same umbrella when it gets to conditioning. Like a heavy single gets the heart rate up, but I'd agree it doesn't do much. But a hard 10*3 on the minute? I have hard time thinking it doesn't do a thing.

That would be the difference between aerobic and anaerobic conditioning, its isn't all about elevated heart rate. This has been pretty well researched, even BBers will get some aerobic benefit but the magnitude is pretty small. Your heart will get stronger.

Is even possible to structure your unloaded intervals to produce a blunted aerobic response, its the aerobic response that has to be baked in from the start.

 

[Spock]

So, I’m an ER doc (like this Sean O’Mara guy, apparently), and as such I look at CT scans of the abdomen and pelvis every shift (the radiologist provides the official read, but I always personally review the images as well). Do you want to know who has a lot of visceral fat? Fat people. Do you know who doesn’t have a lot of visceral fat? Lean people.

I have never seen an endurance athlete with excess visceral fat.