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Kettlebell Press v. Push Press in ROP

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Nate

Nate

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Am I overlooking anything by using a push press in ROP instead of a press? My right shoulder just doesn't take volume of strict pressing. I can push press a 70 for 15 and feel fine, but 62*8 strict leaves me aching for a week. Several years ago I switched from bench to floor press for the same reason. I could hit 295 on floor but 225 on bench was followed with a feeling of gravel under my front delt (not during, but starting about a day later). At 6' & 175, I figured it was a combination of larger range of motion w/ my thinner torso & 40 years of excessive use. I know substitution is frowned upon, but any insight from the veterans here if I'm overlooking something would be appreciated!
 
If I had a creaky shoulder, I would not do the ROP. Too much volume. The goal of the ROP is to get 1/2 bodyweight strict. A push press is a great exercise, however it will not exclusively get you to a strict press, because you lose tightness.

I have always made good progress in the 24-50 rep volume range. 10 sets of 3, 10 sets of 4, etc. Or 5 x 5, etc. If your shoulder can't take that, jerks are a great exercise that are similar to a push press.

You should also have a doctor look at your shoulder to make sure you won't do further damage
 
@Nate
I'll echo that it's a good idea to get a handle on why pressing makes your shoulder hurt. Specific structural damage/injury/wear and tear/inflammation and/or pressing form/mobility/shoulder mechanics can play a role.

As someone who is continuing to recover from shoulder surgery, I agree that ballistic overhead exercises, such as push presses and snatches, can be more shoulder-friendly than strict presses, but that also depends on the specific nature of your shoulder problem.

Whether substituting push presses in ROP is a good idea also depends on what you want out of the program. If you are specifically trying to increase your press, I agree with @BrianCF that it probably isn't the best way. A lower volume press program would likely be more effective. If you can't press at all. or only very little, without pain, then a strict press goal is unrealistic to begin with.

If your goal is any combination of improving your push press, hypertrophy, maintaining a base of overhead strength for when you are physically able to return to pressing, and/or if you just enjoy lifting things overhead, then the substitution makes more sense.

BTW, I am a much bigger fan of push presses than jerks, especially if you have jacked up shoulders. For one thing, catching the weight in the lockout by dipping under it has a much greater mobility demand. If your shoulders are jacked up to begin with, chances are you don't have the necessary mobility/shoulder mechanics to do them safely. For the same reason, I'd recommend staying with a single bell. Doubles have a higher mobility demand, while singles give you more literal and figurative wiggle room to find a comfortable groove.

Edit: One more press variation to test out as a viable workaround is the seesaw MP. In my recovery from shoulder surgery this is the most shoulder-friendly press I've tried.

In a nutshell it's a double bell press where you start by pressing one bell while keeping the other in the rack, then alternate arms. Both arms work at the same time, but one goes up while the other goes down (hence the name).

Working both arms in opposite directions creates a counterbalance that allows for a very comfortable groove. And even though it's a double bell press, your shoulders aren't locked in to position like in a regular double MP. You have the same "wiggle room" as in a single press, but the second bell as counterbalance makes the groove feel even more stable. If you imagine pressing yourself away from the weight, having the counterweight facilitates doing it.
 
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Maybe my personal anecdote is helpful.

I had some issues with ROP when more volume started creeping in.
It was after video analysis that I noticed I wasn't avoiding the shrug as well as I thought.

It was helpful to find this out, because with less volume (up to 25 reps) I didn't notice any ache at all.



That video is what I mean.
Eventually I started shrugging unconsciously after the 3rd or 4th ladder.
 
I think the best option would be to check with an SFG.
If that is not an option you have to analyse the problem for yourself. Film yourself and compare it to SF reference videos.
However to me it sounds like there is some dissconnection. Start each press by really zipping up. Push your heels into the ground pull up your kneecaps, crack a nut with your glutes and brace your abs for a punch. When the bell is in the rack pull your elbow down to "turn on" your lats. Keep your shoulder packed and try to press "from your lat". That sounds weird but always works for me. On the way down, pull the bellninto the rack like doing a one arm chin.
 
1. check with an SFG..
2. there are many ways to approach pressing a heavier bell if you have issues with ROP. Have you considered adding a density component before going up a rung instead? @Frank_IT has a great anecdote on this.

3. if the density option still doesn't work have you considered using the triple progression or the soju and tuba as an alternative?
 
Steve W. said:
One more press variation to test out as a viable workaround is the seesaw MP.
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My Dad has just (6 months ago - in time for retiremebt) started lifting. He has the shoulders of a rugby player and the See-Saw press is what he instinctively started with. He gets pain from double presses so it's good to see how easy he has found the SSP.
 
Mark Limbaga said:
1. check with an SFG..
2. there are many ways to approach pressing a heavier bell if you have issues with ROP. Have you considered adding a density component before going up a rung instead? @Frank_IT has a great anecdote on this.

3. if the density option still doesn't work have you considered using the triple progression or the soju and tuba as an alternative?
Click to expand...

Yup, I do, courtesy of this man right here and awesome distant coach @Mark Limbaga: please refer directly to Mr. Hell himself for the density, but I'll say enough by telling you that his variation of RoP is to be tackled if you like some though workout to be trhown at you, the addition of squats and an overall fun and rewarding experience (both physically and personally: I can't stress enough how much Mark is fun, easy going and caring... Did I mention he's fun?)

My personal advice if you'll follow RoPPE (RoP Philippines Edition) is to be very carefull about the weight selection: this animal is of a different kind and, because of the excalating density and the add of squats, is not to measured by normal RoP standards, to me.

My results over the course of the program where:
1. Improved press;
2. Improved squats (by a bit larger margin than I could have imagined, I must say), that was a PR;
3. + 8 kg TGU (40 kg, more than half my bodyweight) on both sides, that was also a PR and something I was really after.

Mark said he though the +1/2BW get up could have come sooner than the end of the program, so one fine day I decided to try it and there it was.
 
offwidth said:
@Frank_IT ...!
There is a name from the past. Where have you been?
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Hi @offwidth, and thanks for caring, my friend!

Live's gotten in the way with work, busy schedules and the ever present end of the year meets I have to cope with. I still train consistently (or at least I try my best) and I'm faithful to the StrongFirst method an Al's teachings.

How are you? How're things going for you?
 
@keprotica, if you are referring to the see-saw version of the military press, I don't think it would do much for one's pressing strength - not for me, at least. It's a wonderful movement, but once you get the hang of it, the groove makes the press easier, particularly at the sticking point. I think of the see-saw press as loaded mobility rather than a strength exercise.

I haven't had the chance to discuss this with my colleagues and don't know if they'd agree, but that's how the see-saw press has always struck me.

-S-
 
@IonRod, I don’t know but it’s a interesting idea. In my training, I have only used it as a way of getting more reps with a weight I could already comfortably press.

-S-
 
generally pressing variations can help your one arm press. I have a tendency to lean to much to the side, I've been doing some double presses and the problem has been minimized. Bottoms up helped me generate tension for my one arm press. haven't worked see saw press but id imagine it would help something.
 
@Nate “Long Push Press” (clean, squat, power up into push press), and Backup Press (using the other arm to push the bell out/up at the sticking point) are approved variety day drills from an “appendix” to ETK. It says to use the next bell up from your “ladder bell” for these drills.

When you say “70 for 15”, do you mean total volume (5 ladders to 2 = 15 reps per arm), or 15 reps? The ladders are supposed to top out at about half the rep max (e.g. ladders to 5 rungs with a bell you can press 7-10 times). If you mean reps per set, maybe do less reps per set and more sets (with enough rest as needed)?
 
Sean M said:
@Nate “Long Push Press” (clean, squat, power up into push press), and Backup Press (using the other arm to push the bell out/up at the sticking point) are approved variety day drills from an “appendix” to ETK. It says to use the next bell up from your “ladder bell” for these drills.

When you say “70 for 15”, do you mean total volume (5 ladders to 2 = 15 reps per arm), or 15 reps? The ladders are supposed to top out at about half the rep max (e.g. ladders to 5 rungs with a bell you can press 7-10 times). If you mean reps per set, maybe do less reps per set and more sets (with enough rest as needed)?
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I've not done ETK ladders. 70x15 was just the largest single set I've done in a non program workout. PP or jerk is fine, it must be out of the hole that bothers me.
 
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