Barbell PTTP & BJJ

[marcelotine]

I apologize if this question has been asked and answered before, but I am interested to learn how well the PTTP program works (or doesn't work) for some who is simultaneously practicing BJJ 3 to 5 days a week. Are there any modifications that you need to make to the PTTP program to make it work for a BJJ practitioner? Do you find PTTP takes out your energy for BJJ (I read a comment on a thread from Pavel that it actually gives a 'tonic" effect)? What is the best way to train both - same day vs. alternate days, PTTP before BJJ practice or after? Do you reduce PTTP to 3 or 4 days a week?

I have completed two cycles of the PTTP program so far under quarantine conditions (no grappling of course), and would very much like to keep it up once I resume my BJJ practice once things return to normal, and I would very much appreciate benefiting from the experience and wisdom of others who have practiced both PTTP and BJJ simultaneously.

Thanks!

 

[Gravytrain]

At times I've done 2 wks each of PTTP/S&S and grappled 4-5 times a week.

I just did it by the book on most days. So 5 days a week but occasionally less. Never noticed it being an issue for recovery or grappling. Even being 50+.

 

[Pantrolyx]

It should be a very useful combination.
As long as you follow the principles in PTTP (not going to failure, leaving energy in the bank), recovery should not be something to worry about. You will feel for yourself if you need to do something with the training frequency one way or another.

 

[Mike Torres]

In my relatively limited experience (3 years, blue belt) there are only two ways to become more “efficient” in Jiu-Jitsu.

1) Use better technique (starting with base, posture, connection, pressure) and 2) get stronger (so you use less of your strength reserve during those times you need it - which should be decreasing over time based on #1, which is ultimately much more important).

PTTP is definitely a great option for the “get stronger” bucket - as a stronger deadlift and press will definitely have carryover and give you that “all around“ strength.

I wouldn’t do PTTP after BJJ as your CNS will be fried. If you can, I’d separate the activities - PTTP in the AM, BJJ in the PM. I tend to use BJJ days as “days off” of strength training - and vice versa - and it works well for me.

 

[cwheeler33]

I found that one can do PttP and combat sports if they are cycled properly. I liked 3 weeks of alternating PttP and KB's (this was before S&S was a glimmer in daddy's eyes...) Just keep an eye on your fatigue and learn to cycle. Cutting reps is good, but don't be afraid to cut the weight and slowly wave back up again.

I think one of the best pieces of of advice I wish I received back then - start low and rise slow...
As stated in many of Pavel's books - Practice nor workout.

 

[marcelotine]

Do any of you have experience with other programs with BJJ or combat sports in general, such as Starting Strength or Faleev's 80:20 - I tried starting strength briefly and found it too taxing on my stem, and as importantly, the commitment too much - difficult to do while grappling, and doing life (work, family, etc).

I would like to try Faleev's 80/20 at some point.

 

[Mike Torres]

I don't personally as I was already 8 years into RKC/StrongFirst when I started BJJ.

I have explored some of Phil Daru's programs as well as Fight Camp Conditioning, but I have (in general) found most programs to be too much to combine with 4x/week BJJ or just too complicated to do - especially with a full-time job, kids, and 43 years of life. It's what I love about StrongFirst - there's an awful lot of "bang for the buck".

 

[cwheeler33]

In my youth I had a lot of experience with making bad decisions in the gym. West Side, deFranco, Bear, 5x5x5 and a whack load of other stuff all while trying to be a family man, full time work, and in the dojo 4-5 times a week. I finally broke physically. I was off all training (no gym, no dojo, nothing) for 8 months.

Back to PttP - it worked. Slow and steady, restarting from an empty bar. New PR's at the end of 9 months. Full of energy.

These days I'm hitting S&S and Q&D and making all kinds of new gains in the gym and on the mats. I will spare 2-3 months in a year on hypertrophy or some big power lifting program each year. It has to be in the off season when the Judo school closes down, and not adding in new extra classes into Nintai Aikijujutsu. The only way to do it all -> is to not do all of it at the same time, pick and choose...

Looking at 80/20 quickly - I would say you'll have the same problems with it as you did Starting Strength. I find those programs are best left to dedicated lifters. Faleev limited his lifting selection for a reason. If your heart is set on it, do it for a brief period of time during your off season and reduce your mat time.

 

[marcelotine]

In my youth I had a lot of experience with making bad decisions in the gym. West Side, deFranco, Bear, 5x5x5 and a whack load of other stuff all while trying to be a family man, full time work, and in the dojo 4-5 times a week. I finally broke physically. I was off all training (no gym, no dojo, nothing) for 8 months.

Back to PttP - it worked. Slow and steady, restarting from an empty bar. New PR's at the end of 9 months. Full of energy.

These days I'm hitting S&S and Q&D and making all kinds of new gains in the gym and on the mats. I will spare 2-3 months in a year on hypertrophy or some big power lifting program each year. It has to be in the off season when the Judo school closes down, and not adding in new extra classes into Nintai Aikijujutsu. The only way to do it all -> is to not do all of it at the same time, pick and choose...

Looking at 80/20 quickly - I would say you'll have the same problems with it as you did Starting Strength. I find those programs are best left to dedicated lifters. Faleev limited his lifting selection for a reason. If your heart is set on it, do it for a brief period of time during your off season and reduce your mat time.

Thanks, Wheeler. Despite my very limited experience with lifting weights, it does seem to me that PTTP is probably going to be one of the most compatible and sustainable program for me given my grappling and life commitments.

I would like to attempt something like Faleev's 80/20 or Starting Strength (not Bear, it seems too brutal, and subjective, i.e.,'do as many sets as you can')at some point because I would benefit from some added muscle mass as a skinny and thin boned individual - while extra weight has its downsides and i have no desire to be a hulk, I can do with some some extra padding to absorb the damage, 'body armor' so to speak.

The problem is that there is no off season with BJJ, and definitely no off season with life and given where I am in terms of my BJJ, I cannot justify taking time off from the mats and sacrifice the skill work for strength training. However, if this lockdown is extended for a few more month (which I certainly don't hope for) that would be a unique opportunity for me to try and bulk - Faleev's 80/20 seems more appealing than SS. I like the fact that it focuses on one lift a day. I imagine it wold be less taxing on the system.

At the very least, I hope to continue with the PTTP, and hopefully retain it as a permanent practice. I would also like to learn how to use kettlebells and try the simple and sinister program sometime once this madness is over.

 

[apa]

Another option is Easy Strength.

 

[godjira1]

PTTP + BJJ works. The trick is to do PTTP BEFORE BJJ if you are scheduling them back to back. The other way around doesn't work so well.

The low volume of PTTP allows it to integrate quite easily while most of the other programs, even the supposedly minimalist ones, take up too much time or recovery resources.

my 2c worth... as a purple belt who has done bjj for 6 years so far. YMMV.

 

[Tony Gracia]

That should be able to work fine. As mentioned above strength training before BJJ is preferred over the opposite.

In general I think a good general guideline is to "train" no more than two lifts / movements in any one training cycle, and any other lifts / movements would just be "practiced" here and there. So if you're doing PTTP you'd do your DL and your press variation as your two lifts you "train" then could mix in Gob SQ, chins, direct core work, etc. if you so chose. Same thing if your two main lifts were S&S (1HS and TGU), you could mix in other lifts, but don't push the others to terribly hard.

I would not advise Starting Strength in conjunction with BJJ. SS is a lot of volume on big compound lifts and is hard enough to recover from on its own, let along if you're also grappling. FWIW I actually did that sort of thing about 10 years ago when I washed 20's and a purple belt, and even at that age it was really hard to recover. Now as mid-30's and a black belt I need to be more selective, and when in doubt it's better to leave something out and make sure you're not over-training, rather than roll the dice and try to include too much and have it be too much.

 

[Kozushi]

Any kind of safe strength training will help your BJJ or any combat sport, especially grappling sports. Grappling sports resemble weight training in that you are grabbing and manipulating a weight - the weight being your opponent. And, before we get too caught up in strength versus technique, you have to use a lot of technique to lift weights well, and this is part of your grappling technique. Having said all this, beginners and even intermediate level players can't help but to vastly underestimate the value of technique and skill in grappling sports.
I hate to say it though but depending on how you train on the mats you may be already getting enough strength training, and of course it is perfectly sport-specific strength. I have come to see S&S (and other weight training moves) as their own pursuits.

Now, a lot of people who train in grappling arts including myself even after many years of being a black belt are really only what I'd call "intermediate" in their skills, so without a doubt for people like myself if we're talking about really needing to "win", strength is still going to matter a lot of the time against/with a lot of partners. I can already start to see strength diminishing in importance against many opponents as I continue to improve my skill, but I'm still nowhere near any kind of "master" level like my 7th dan coach nor the 2 time World Cup champion I recently trained with (who are both full time professional judoka.) My strength means just about nothing against them (but both feel it and are quite impressed with it - THANK YOU STRONG FIRST!!! This is something coming from guys of such high calibre, my coach being an Olympic coach several times for instance), but against other "intermediate" guys or newer to the sport, my strength certainly plays a big role in a lot of aspects of judo, not the least of which are just making myself more robust to handle training and to resist injury or fatigue.