Kettlebell Quick forward bend between swing sets in S&S?
- Thread starter Fraser
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Correct. Would not do forward bends (as in spinal flexion), between sets, or even for a while after S&S. Any other time shouldn't hurt, but personally I don't really ever try to put my spine in flexion. Hip hinge is the better way to forward bend, with knees bent if necessary, with basically a flat back. That's just my preference. I've noticed that some backs naturally flex more than others... mine has always tended to be a non-flexion type, and even more so as I've developed more stiffness and strength from heavy lifting.
Molson
Level 5 Valued Member
I guess it’s more natural for ladies to bend with hinge and straight back. As Rip acknowledged in SS, many guys don’t get it at the start but ladies do. Not saying it applies to all males and females equally. But personally I don’t think I had ever done a hinge before I discovered Pavel’s teachings.
Timmer C
Level 6 Valued Member
if there is ever an S & S 3.0, this point could be clarified. If you are going to do a forward bend, practice it as a hip hinge and not in a manner that flexes your spine.
I practice the forward bend (as a hip hinge) regularly because I want to have this habit so deeply ingrained that I use it automatically and don’t flex my spine when I need to pick something up or put something away in a low location.
I practice the forward bend (as a hip hinge) regularly because I want to have this habit so deeply ingrained that I use it automatically and don’t flex my spine when I need to pick something up or put something away in a low location.
Fraser
Level 4 Valued Member
Many thanks. Flabbergasting! So Jefferson curl is out then! I will stick to hip hinge hamstring stretch. How does one lengthen the lower back then?
Luminarychocobo
First Post
Static stretching between sets of weighted explosive exercises that involve the lower back and hamstrings, what could go wrong?
@Pavel Macek could tell us more about when/how/why the Jefferson curl could be done. I've not ever done it, myself.
As for hamstring stretch and lengthening the low back -- What is the objective?
I guess I need to correct my previous statement. I do practice cat/cow, as described here:
Other/Mixed - Stretching lower back by bending forward
Pavel mentions in many books that you should avoid slouching and bending forward after training. But if done on a separate stretching session and not straight after training, is it ok to stretch by bending forward? Some things to consider or be aware of? I do it every now and then and it feels...
www.strongfirst.com
That's about the only time I purposely practice spinal flexion, although I guess some yoga poses include some too; i.e. crow pose, cobbler pose. I don't avoid it with unloaded movement, I just don't attempt to increase it with any type of exercise.
- When? On your variety days.
- How? Hard to explain in single post - it looks simple, and that is the reason why most people do it wrong and hurt their back. My personal recommendation is to start with partial and then full spinal wave (no weight), i.e. really curl one vertebrae after one vertebrae. Once mastered, grab a really light weight (as light as 2 kg) and spend weeks with it. Most folks would benefit "just" from the partial Jefferson Curl (see the video below)
- Why? To get resilient - StrongFirst RESILIENT!
I will prepare a short tutorial for StrongFirst blog.
Luminarychocobo
First Post
A few thoughts on the Jefferson Pike Curl.
I was a competitive gymnast when I was young, until I was 16, and practiced the weighted pike curl as we called it quite often.
I carried on practicing it for the next 10 years in my career as an MMA fighter.
Most athletes were very young so Jefferson Curl was not used that often. Only when a full pike was achieved with strict posture (knees to nose with straight back) were we allowed to perform the Pike curl, and to start with only with an empty bar which I believe was 5kg. Strong athletes increased VERY slowly with weight.
I've seen a few athletes injure their hamstrings/back of the knees by performing this movement going to heavy, or pull their back. In the end when I switched full time to MMA, I decided to only practice the static stretch with weight for time, and not the curl up movement. I'd stand with the weight, slowly lower into pike and hold for 30 seconds to 1 minute. Usually with 24kg, the heaviest I've done was with a 32kg kettlebell. Even with a full pike and 550lb deadlift, 32kg was pushing it for a weighted pike for me.
Whether with movement or static stretch, the weighted jefferson curl/pike is something to take great caution with. I definitely wouldn't recommend doing it heavy unless you're very strong and flexible and even then would ease into it. And consider focusing on the static weighted stretch rather than the movement, I've seen strong and flexible gymnasts pull their back and hamstrings with this one.
Definitely not one to perform in between sets of a stretch movement involving the posterior chain.
Just some thoughts to consider. But if it works for you, that's awesome. For me personally, the weighted stretch had less risk and more results.
I was a competitive gymnast when I was young, until I was 16, and practiced the weighted pike curl as we called it quite often.
I carried on practicing it for the next 10 years in my career as an MMA fighter.
Most athletes were very young so Jefferson Curl was not used that often. Only when a full pike was achieved with strict posture (knees to nose with straight back) were we allowed to perform the Pike curl, and to start with only with an empty bar which I believe was 5kg. Strong athletes increased VERY slowly with weight.
I've seen a few athletes injure their hamstrings/back of the knees by performing this movement going to heavy, or pull their back. In the end when I switched full time to MMA, I decided to only practice the static stretch with weight for time, and not the curl up movement. I'd stand with the weight, slowly lower into pike and hold for 30 seconds to 1 minute. Usually with 24kg, the heaviest I've done was with a 32kg kettlebell. Even with a full pike and 550lb deadlift, 32kg was pushing it for a weighted pike for me.
Whether with movement or static stretch, the weighted jefferson curl/pike is something to take great caution with. I definitely wouldn't recommend doing it heavy unless you're very strong and flexible and even then would ease into it. And consider focusing on the static weighted stretch rather than the movement, I've seen strong and flexible gymnasts pull their back and hamstrings with this one.
Definitely not one to perform in between sets of a stretch movement involving the posterior chain.
Just some thoughts to consider. But if it works for you, that's awesome. For me personally, the weighted stretch had less risk and more results.
Fraser
Level 4 Valued Member
Thanks. I've done yoga throughout my life in which forward and backward bends are fairly balanced. My understanding when doing forward bends with spinal flexion was that I was decompressing my discs.
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
Maybe I am a little bit uncommon, but I do the very same full body mobility & flexibility routine every single day, after the training. I never have experienced any issue in more than 13 years. This routine includes flexion, extension and rotation of every joints.
I have always been supple, so maybe this is why I can do it that way.
As always, I think the most important thing is to find the routine and frequency which works for you.
Kind regards,
Pet'
Maybe I am a little bit uncommon, but I do the very same full body mobility & flexibility routine every single day, after the training. I never have experienced any issue in more than 13 years. This routine includes flexion, extension and rotation of every joints.
I have always been supple, so maybe this is why I can do it that way.
As always, I think the most important thing is to find the routine and frequency which works for you.
Kind regards,
Pet'
Makes sense... I don't have enough knowledge of the spine to agree or disagree. My general impression is that we tend to spend time in flexion when sitting, so we only need to really work on countering that with extension.
Maybe someone with more spine knowledge will chime in.
Fraser
Level 4 Valued Member
Thanks. Are swings a stretch movement, then? I had assumed that they were shortening my hamstrings.
Well, any muscle that's doing work is lengthening and shortening, so the hamstrings are doing this while doing swings. A muscle can also be in a lengthened state and contract isometrically, as with many yoga poses. Both support the goals of strengthening and improving a muscle's useful range of motion and ability to produce force within that ROM.
But I tend to think of "stretching" as relaxation. As in Pavel's "Relax into Stretch." The goal isn't to stretch the muscle, it's to relax it. So that's accomplishing a different objective. My own belief is that static stretching is useful for overall relaxation objectives (toning down the CNS, feeling good, improving the mind-body connection) and not necessarily good for improving useful ROM or improving muscle recovery. But some people believe it is good for those things, too.
Luminarychocobo
First Post
My apologies. I meant to write 'strength movement.'
Yes, a strength movement. The muscle contraction is producing force to move your frame/bones at the pivot points (joints), like levers, which in turn moves the weight.
Some might call it more specifically a power movement, because speed is an essential component of the strength movement. This would be in contrast to a kettlebell deadlift, for example, where speed is not important, therefore is a more "pure" strength movement.
jordybell1994
Level 1 Valued Member
In Simple and Sinister Pavel writes that you should be able to do 10x10 one arm swings in 5 minutes comfortably before progressing the weight. He says the goal is 1:1 Work-Rest-Ratio, so 15 seconds work and rest for each set. When I timed my sets I noticed it takes me around 18-19 seconds at maximum effort, making my rest time pretty short when aiming for the 5 minutes. I tried both two arm swings with 24kg and one arm swings with 16kg. I can do both in 5 minutes anyway (16kg one arm comfortably and 24kg two arm barely). Currently I want to work on getting more comfortable with the 24kg two arm swings in five minutes and slowly introduce 24kg one arm swings.
John Locke
Level 4 Valued Member
I'm not an expert (just through reading prof McGill book to fix my problems) but AFAIK to avoid back problems it is better to maintain the spine neutral, expecially under loads. So you have to use the hip and not the back for power movement.
If you flex the spine I doubt you decompress the discs. I think it is just the opposite.
To experience range of motion without load it is better to use the cat camel position.
jordybell1994
Level 1 Valued Member
Currently I want to work on getting more comfortable with the 24kg two arm swings in five minutes and slowly introduce 24kg one arm swings.
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