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PlanStrong/BuiltStrong Rep speed

Jaurvind

Level 4 Valued Member
Hello.
When testing rms for a new cycle. I am supposed to stop when first signs of technocal detoriation start to show up.
My question is: are sudden slower repspeed a sign of this?
 
Generally, yes.... but could you clarify what movement you are doing?
 
I am asking in general, but is it different for different movements? This time it was the vertical press, i did 8 reps but the last 2 were slower. Not bad form but significantly slower that the first 5 or 6.
 
I get that some movements are slower but thats not what i am asking about, its when the lift gets significantly slower after some reps, is that considered technical detoriation?. Just to clarify
 
I think it may depend on the context...

My guess is no, in the case of what you said, "When testing rms for a new cycle". In that context, slower reps would be OK, and expected. Just not significant form changes, i.e. really leaning far to the side in the case of a vertical press.

In other contexts, reps slowing down can be one of the "stop signs" during certain types of programming, but that will usually be described in the program if that's the case.
 
Jaurvind said:
I get that some movements are slower but thats not what i am asking about, its when the lift gets significantly slower after some reps, is that considered technical detoriation?
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No

The Technique of the Movement is not necessarily altered by the speed of it.

An individual can perferm a Movement with good technique with a fast or slow speed.

The Speed in which the Movement is performed has to with...

The Muscle Fiber Type Being Trained

There are three primary Muscle Fiber Types.

1) Type IIb/x "Super Fast" Muscle Fiber

These Muscle Fiber are Explosive and primarily generate Speed and Power.

When innervated with an Explosive Movement, they are innervated for approximately 10 seconds.

After around 10 seconds, they are no longer involved in the Movement.

2) Type IIa Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber

These tend to be primarly used in Maximum Strength Movements.

There duration is a little longer that 10 seconds but not that much.

3) Slow Type I Muscle Fiber

These are the Endurance Muscle Fiber Type.

The Size Principle

This is involved in the shift of Muscle Fiber Type in a Movement.

In an Explosive Movement the Type IIb/x "Super Fast" Muscle Fiber are primarily involved for around 10 seconds. They are then exhausted and are not longer involve; they stop working.

The workload is then shifted to the Type IIa Fast Twich Muscle Fiber. The speed of the movement is slower but continues.

After a litlle longer that 10 seconds, Type IIa Fast Twich Muscle Fiber are exhausted and no longer involved.

The workload is shifted to the Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber. Speed and Power drop like a rock.

Technique and Muscle Fatigue

Technique failure occurs in a Strength Movement (Maximum Strength, Power and Speed) due to Muscle Fatigue of the Type IIb/x and/or Type IIa Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Continuing In A Muscle Fatigued State

Here is what happens...

1) Once Muscle Fatigue occurs Technique deteriorate quickly.

Continuing to push a Movement in a Muscle Fatigued State develops poor Technique.

2) The Training Objective Is Altered

a) Speed and/or Power Training

Once the Type IIb/x "Super Fast" Muscle Fiber are exhaused, they are not longer being trained nor developed.

The workload is shifted the slower Type IIa Fast Muscle Fiber; Maximim Strength is being Trained, not Power and/or Speed.

b) Once the Type IIa Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are exhaused, they are not longer being trained nor developed.

The workload is shifted to the very slow Type I Slow Twitch; Endurance is being trained and developed at the expense of Maximum Strength, Power and/or Speed.

Training Percentage Strength Training Protocols

This is a good article that beaks down the Training Percentage that need to be used to develop certain Types of Strength.

From 0 to 100: Know Your Percentages!
www.t-nation.com

From 0 to 100: Know Your Percentages!

Each training percentage, from zero to 100% of your 1RM, has a distinct effect on speed, power, and hypertrophy. Here’s how to use that info wisely.
www.t-nation.com www.t-nation.com

Summary

1) Perfoming a Movement at a Slower Speed doesn't necessarily mean that Techinique is altered.

What it means is the a different Type of Strength is being devleoped.

2) Muscle Fatigue

This is the determinate factor that causes the deterioration of Technique.

Continuing to push/pull a Movement when Muscle Fatigue happens, ensures Poor Technique is devlopes and the Type of Strength Training has been altered.
 
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Agree with all of @Kenny Croxdale s excellent post. I think it provides the details for my point -- i.e., if it's for RM testing, slowing down doesn't matter. But for training/programming, it might matter, because if you are targeting specific adaptations such as muscle fiber type, rep speed slowing can be an important indicator to stop the set.

Having said that, I'd like to have someone who has attend Plan Strong or Build Strong weigh in on this.... (I have not).
 
Kenny Croxdale said:
1) Once Muscle Fatigue occurs Technique deteriorate quickly.

Continuing to push a Movement in a Muscle Fatigued State develops poor Technique.

2) The Training Objective Is Altered

a) Speed and/or Power Training

Once the Type IIb/x "Super Fast" Muscle Fiber are exhaused, they are not longer being trained nor developed.

The workload is shifted the slower Type IIa Fast Muscle Fiber; Maximim Strength is being Trained, not Power and/or Speed.

b) Once the Type IIa Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are exhaused, they are not longer being trained nor developed.

The workload is shifted to the very slow Type I Slow Twitch; Endurance is being trained and developed at the expense of Maximum Strength, Power and/or Speed.
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i did not understand this aspect in this way ...

i will be altering my current training based on this information.
 
PAVEL says the set is OVER when you are too tired to brace your abs or squeeze your glutes. That advice works for me. I do go SLOWER when the weight is HEAVIER though. 70lbs. KB in a swing is much slower for me than a 50lbs.
 
Yes, ok. I did not mean slow reps, i meant when the speed of the last reps dont match the speed of the first. Can please @Fabio Zonin answer so that we know how the program was ment to be followed? Rm testing, reps slowing down matters?
 
Jaurvind said:
Yes, ok. I did not mean slow reps, i meant when the speed of the last reps dont match the speed of the first. Can please @Fabio Zonin answer so that we know how the program was ment to be followed? Rm testing, reps slowing down matters?
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IMO, slower rep speed, without other deterioration in technique, is not technical failure. But there are a few other variables to consider:

Are you trying to be maximally explosive at the beginning of the set? If so, there will be a greater contrast between the earlier reps and later reps. It will also probably fatigue you faster, so you may end up with a lower RM. IMO, this is not necessary for grinds. A natural controlled pace, neither artificially slow, nor maximally fast, will probably yield the highest RM. However, you might want to adjust how you test your RMs and where you draw the line for technical failure, as explained below.

Having done a couple of Fabio's programs based on RMs, you want an accurate RM, but you also have to think a little strategically about the RM you use. The working reps are based on your RM, so the higher the RM you use, the tougher the top rungs will be. In my experience, the working reps in these programs are well-calibrated to your tested RMs. If you go too light, you don't get the maximum benefits of the program as designed, but if you go too heavy the top rungs are going to be really tough, or even impossible.

But there is a little wiggle room in between, so when testing your RM, think ahead to how you want your working sessions to feel. If you want your top sets to be a tough challenge, then count that last rep or two that was tough and slow, but still technically acceptable. If you don't want to have to dig deep on those top sets, then maybe DON'T count that last rep or two that was tough and slow. There might be a theoretical ideal RM that will be exactly optimal for maximum results, but IMO as long as you are close, plus or minus a rep or two, you will get good results anyway.

Since you mentioned testing for a NEW cycle, that implies you've already done a cycle. So consider that experience. How did you test your RMs for the first cycle? How did the top sets of your working sessions feel? If they were really tough, did you enjoy that challenge, or did you not look forward to sessions because they seemed daunting? If they seemed like too much of a struggle, maybe lower the cutoff criteria on your new RM tests. If they seemed very easy, maybe push the line on your new RM tests a little more. If they felt good, then use the same standard you did the first time.
 
IIRC it wasn't mentioned during either of the seminars (I attended both).
In my own experience though I would accept a slight decline in rep speed, but not too much.

"Make sure that you count only the perfect reps, at the very first signs of technique deterioration the test is over"

That are the exact words from Fabio in the Build Strong manual. We can debate whether or not slowing down during reps is a early sign of technique deterioration or not. I would argue the first rep that's slower then those before is ok, the second slower rep is not.

Because of my own experience with Build Strong I would suggest this:
For upper body pushes like the KB press it's ok to push the RM test a bit further. For lower body exercises like squats or deadlifts I would stop when the rep speed slows down, because for the lower body lifts you need to be really conservative IMO, otherwise you will dread the top rungs of those lifts every time, because they will suck the life out of you...
 
Steve W. said:
IMO, slower rep speed, without other deterioration in technique, is not technical failure.
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IIRC in S&S it is mentioned that not being able to do a grind "super slow" means you are hiding a technical deficit.

That leads me to believe that rep speed isn't a technical failure unless you are testing a specific rep speed (ala the rep speed program from the newsletter).
Along with personal experience. If you slow down but keep the groove perfect, that is a good rep. If it falls out of the groove, you had a technical failure.
 
I would count a rep if it slows down as long as I’m locked into the technique. For example, yesterday I tested my five rep max on barbell military press. I worked up with some singles until I was warmed up to go after what I predicted to be a 5rm. The first 4 reps went pretty smooth and one the fifth, I stayed tight everything super braced and grinded the weight up until lock out. The fifth rep felt like a 1rm attempt but it wasn’t, it was my 5rm. I definitely could not have gotten a sixth rep with that weight.

Now if on that fifth rep I could not stay tight but somehow still got the weight up, which I don’t think is really possible for strict pressing cause once you lose tension, the weight is coming down, but if I was able to somehow lean back and drive with my legs some, then that rep definitely doesn’t count. I would need to retest five pounds lighter or so.
 
Hi everyone,

When testing the RMs on a lift for a Built Strong Plan, all the technically competent reps that one is able to complete should be counted, no matter if the movement slows down.

Assessing the RMs in Built Strong serves the purpose of selecting the appropriate rep ladder, which is calculated on the range 1/3-2/3 of RM.

There are other plans, such as the "Russian Countdown", featured in the Barbell 201 workshop manual, in which it is required to assess the number of reps one can complete without the movement slowing down, but those are different types of plans.

I hope this helps.
 
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