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Old Forum RTK with barbells added

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porvida

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At first blush this may sound like another crazy idea where an amateur wants to mess with perfection. But, allow me to explain why I am asking this question.

I have been following barbell program for the last six months.  While I made some significant strength gains and added some mass I have developed more stiffness and joint pain. As a result, I decided to switch back to kettlebells for a while. I am currently in week 5 of kettlebell muscle. I am really enjoying training with kb's again.  Not only are my training sessions shorter, but I am already feeling less stiffness and joint pain. I plan to finish all 12 weeks of Kettlebell Muscle.

I just  finished re-reading RTK and am considering following it for a while. However, I have some questions. RTK is written with the mindset that the trainee does not own a barbell. Thus, the program modifies some rep schemes (eg. For deadlifts) to compensate for the lack of a barbell.

 

I totally understand and respect the design of RTK. However, I am concerned that the progress I have made on my barbell squat and deadlift will be lost after 12 weeks of KMand then several cycles of RTK. This raises my question, is there a way to incorporate a barbell with RTK since I have one?

I am considering just using the barbell for the squats (using the same RTK reps etc) and for the deadlifts (but switching to lower reps to account for the heavier weight available with a barbell).

I realize I would not be following RTK, but I like the idea of RTK block training and would like to focus on KBs for a while without losing the gains I made on barbell squats and deadlift.

Is this the proverbial case of a guy who wants to have his cake and eat it too?
 
There's a bunch of questions here that, were I working with you, I would want to know the answer to.

1. Why were you developing stiffness and joint pain? That's not an inevitability with barbells by any means, so something in the programming or technique might be an issue.

2. Can you pass the ROP goals that are recommended as prerequisite to ROTK? If not, how close are you on each?

3. Is your goal specifically hypertrophy? Because if not, if it's just that you enjoy doing double kettlebell work, there are better programs for you, many by Geoff Neupert (since KM is already working well for you).

4. Realize, you can do block training without doing RTK; blocks of pttp and S&S work just fine, for instance.

5. Do you play any other kind of sport or have any other kind of serious physical activity (e.g. martial arts, hiking), because if so, RTK is probably not for you.

6. There's some info about barbells in the Q&A in the back of the book; iirc, the short answer was don't do it.

7. Years back, someone on ddoor posted about using a barbell to do dimel deadlifts, since he had a barbell. His consensus (this was a very strong, experienced lifter) was that it was ok, but in retrospect he would have been better off just sticking to the program as written.

8. If you drop the barbells for a bit, you might, MIGHT, lost a bit of strength with them (or you might not; I pulled a PR 2.5bw deadlift after months of only kettlebell work). This is not a big deal; you're not going back to square one, and you'll get anything you lose back pretty quickly. This is part of lifting, knowing how to bring numbers back up to where they were quickly, not trying to do everything all the time to maintain everything. That's a typical mistake that I made for many, many years.

9. Another thing to be aware of, if used to KM; some of these workouts will take A LOT longer than the workouts in KM; if time is a factor, beware.

10. Lastly, this is what I often suggest to those asking about adding to a program, especially one that is already fairly complex, like RTK. Do it first; doesn't have to be for years, but do it for a month or so, and see how you feel. If you feel like you can add something, add one thing, not two or three or ten, but one thing, and see how that does. Still ok after another month? Great, add more if you really want to. But don't add it right out of the starting gate.

RTK is a level of volume that makes me feel tired just reading it. I could not add anything to it; I can't even do the program, not unless I was prepared to give up doing BJJ and other martial arts several days a week, playing in two bands, working long hours, etc. Maybe you can do it, you might be younger than me, get more sleep, have massages every day, whatever. But try it and see how it goes first, then try adding more in. One month off while doing RTK is not going to kill your barbell lifts, and it sounds like you haven't done them much lately anyway, so nothing to worry about there.
 
I'll also add a few questions to Jason's very comprehensive post.

What barbell program were you on for the six months prior to returning to kettlebells five weeks ago?  What were your starting and ending numbers for your lifts, what was your starting and ending body composition?  What's your overall lifting history, e.g., did you hit lifetime PR's in your barbell lifts?

You should let yourself lose your recently achieved barbell lift gains - maybe you won't actually lose anything, but you need to give up on those gains in principle.  Do your new program, and you can return to the barbell whenever you wish in the future.

-S-
 
Just checked with my copy of RotK and Pavel definitely recommends against using barbells for the deadlift, stating "even if you did have a barbell you would be way too smoked for heavy volume deads after 50-100 high tension presses"

In the FAQ section Pavel talks about practicing lifts on variety days of the grind block. Emphasis on "practice." You could do probably do deadlifts on those days, but keep the reps and intensity low. But, if you really want to do RotK you are most likely best starting off with just the main sessions, and then seeing if you feel good enough to add work in to the variety days.
 
What Andy said. If you can, some light speed-ish pulls with 65-75% on variety days, combined with the heavy kb volume, could be extremely potent for your DL training.
 
I personally wouldn't worry too much about your barbell progress.  Never underestimate what heavy LCC&J can (read: will) do for lifts you aren't practicing.  Check out the anecdote from Mr. Whitley (page 46) regarding his experience with his "rusty" deadlift after a period on the long cycle, in addition to the thoughts of Mr. Workman (pages 89, 90).

Take it from me--RotKB works perfectly as written.  I'd recommend sticking with it for at least three months if you go that route.
 
I also wanted to add a barbell (before even starting the program).  Six weeks later I have no interest in it, and in fact have found the RTK program, as written, to be my favorite program to date.

In addition to the maturity and experience that comes with time, I think that the block structure of RTK has taught me a lot about movement cycling.  Specifically, that it's okay to do so, and that it's better to have one's attention fully dedicated to a given task for a predetermined period of time without worrying about what one is not doing.
 
First, I'd like to thank everyone for their input. Especially Jason Ginsberg who provided a lot of really good information to consider.

 

Based on everyone's responses I have confirmed what I think I should have known...i.e. that my idea was not a good one.

However, I would like to respond to the questions that were asked of me so that I can bring this full circle.

For Jason Ginsberg:

1. I'm not sure why I developed pain and stiffness. I assumed the (relatively) heavy weights and high volume were more than I could recover from. I did devote time during each session to work on mobility issues that Max Shank identified during an assessment back in December 2013.

2. I don't think I can pass ROP, however I have never tried.

3. My goal is hypertrophy and strength. I believe it's been described as wanting to be as strong as you look.  Or was it the other way around?  I also own Neupert's KB Express/ Express Ultra and have used a few of those programs.

4. I am aware that  block training can be done without RTK but I am not good enough at programming to create something from scratch. Despite my original post, I am actually pretty good at following plans as they are written. I have completed several as written.

5. I train BJJ 2x per week.  I do not compete. I know RTK says you shouldn't use the program if you also play a sport but when I read that section it is not clear if Pavel was referring to athletes, competitors etc. or people like me who train BJJ 2x/week and don't compete.

6. You are probably right in your interpretation, but it does leave the door open for some "easy strength" barbell lifting.  In support of your interpretation is that Pavel wrote he recommends following RTK for at least 2-3 months then cycling another program.

7. That is good to know. I appreciate the incite.

8. You are probably right.  I struggle with trying to keep all the plates spinning and it is unrealistic.  I guess I just needed to hear it.

9. I am aware RTK sessions would take longer but that is ok with me.

10. Good advice. A scientific approach.

 

For Steve Freides:

I followed Wendler's 5-3-1 for about 9 months and made decent progress but my squat always lagged. I then decided to follow Stonglifts (linear progression) for 3-4 months and saw great gains in my squat. I'm still not strong, but I went from a 5RM of 225 to squating 5x5 @ 285 on my final Stronglifts session. my 1RM for bench is around 260. I recently deadlifted 365 for a fairly easy single so I would guess I can pull 20-30 pounds more. My 1RM military press is around 150-160.

i weigh 190 lbs., last year my BF was 12% (measured in a dunk tank).

 

Again, in, thank you everyone for your feedback. I really appreciate hearing your thoughts and learning from your experiences.

 
 
"2. I don’t think I can pass ROP, however I have never tried."

Read Dan John's most recent blog on this web site.

-S-
 
I searched the forum and found that a question similar to mine was asked by Sven a few months ago. Pavel responded to that post:

 

http://www.strongfirst.com/topic/rtk-deadlifts-bar-or-kbs/
 
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