Old Forum S&S and Let Every Breath

[Jeff]

Pavel, you haven't elaborated on it much, but you have alluded to your involvement in martial arts.  I wonder if your martial arts involvement has mainly been Systema.  I recently purchased Let Every Breath, wondering if I would learn a bit more about the breath control principles that have been briefly touched on in S&S as well as a few posts on this forum.  The claims made in Let Every Breath are compelling.  I wonder if the Systema breathing techniques are consistent with your practice of breath control.  At the outset, there seems to be some incompatibilities, such as The Principal of Breath Independence, such as while kettlebell swinging, The Principal of NonTension, and perhaps The Principle of Breath Continuity during grinds.

In your mind, how compatible is the practice of the Systema breathing principles with Hardstyle Kettlebell practice such as S&S?  Allowing for the possibility that you believe the two are compatible, I am having a hard time seeing how it would be possible to continue with the practice of S&S and still practice the breathing exercises described in Let Every Breath, including the drills involving pushups, squats, leg raises, and situps.

Do you recommend the practice of Systema breathing techniques, and if do, how would you I corporate them into the practice of S&S?

This last part might be a rabbit trail, but it also seems to me that the Systema breathing principles are at odds with another breathing technique I have recently read about called Coherent Breathing.  I wonder if you have practiced Coherent Breathing and what your thoughts are on this as well.

 

 

 

[Jeff]

I wish it was possible to edit the sentence in the next to the last paragraph:

... how would you incorporate them ...

 

 

 

[Jason Ginsberg]

Pavel's stated many many times that he practiced karate, especially shotokan (he also frequently mentions sanchin kata, not traditionally part of shotokan, but taught in some dojo). He's also mentioned drawing from a wide variety of sources, including (iyengar) yoga, and qigong. It wouldn't surprise me if he's met systema people, but I've only seen one scattered reference to it.

I'm not Pavel, but I would recommend you practice S&S as written, there's are several different breathing practices there to explore, and Pavel had his reasons for choosing them. If you absolutely want to try the others you mentioned, do that separately first, then try combining after you hit the "simple" goals, or preferably the "sinister" ones.  Or, if you really don't want to do that, just pick what you want to do, try it for several months, log it, and then reevaluate.

Lastly, if you're interested in Russian martial arts, I would look for a sambo (aka cambo) school. Contact Steve at the American Sambo Association and he may be able to put you in touch with someone near you.

 

[Pavel]

Jeffrey, you are correct: Systema breathing cannot be used during our style kettlebell lifts.  Apples and oranges.  There is a possibility many of Systema's breathing techniques can be used during the recovery time.

 

 

[Pavel]

And what is "coherent breathing"?

 

[Jeff]

I don't know if the term Coherent Breathing has a universal acceptance, or if it is a term that is used within a very narrow circle.  It is described in a book called The New Science of Breath.  There is quite a bit of detail about it which I still don't fully understand, but the essence of it is you take five breaths per minute.  This is supposed to somehow be a frequency that resonates with some kind of harmonic in the body.  The author has objective measurements to validate the claims.  I would have to have the book in front of me to describe it well because I am still trying to grasp it.  It is supposed to have a treasure trove of benefits.

Pavel, are their any books that go into greater detail about the breath practices you embrace?  Do you practice any particular breathing practices apart from your hardstyle kettlebell practice?

 

 

 

[Jeff]

Tamer,

Perhaps you could weigh in, too.  I have seen a few references to your practice of breath.  What is your perspective?

 

[Pavel]

Jeffrey, there are many sophisticated breath practices for different purposes.  For health look into Russian methods by Buteyko and Strelnikova.

 

[Kyrinov]

I feel I've got to put in a disclaimer since I think it was my post that led you to read the book.  Basically what Pavel said, focus on one thing at a time. I apply the lessons I had already learned from years of doing Systema work towards my recovery between getups...the principals of breath sufficiency, breathing full throughout the body and using the breath to slow down the heart rate.  One way you might describe a lot of Systema work is "the art of rapid recovery."  Very different from Strongfirst which I'd call "the art of maximum expression." Like anything, a method is a tool that must become familiar before it can be used in conjunction with other tools.  I used Systema methods as the backbone of my basic training for a couple of years (and other related methods for nearly a decade before that) before I started the Strongfirst methods.  They're different beasts and it's important to use them one at a time to see them for what they are.  My recommendation for Let Every Breath... was to help give some ideas for how to work with your breathing while doing S&S, not to suggest mixing and matching programs.  I do use a bit of Systema tension and breath stuff prior to my S&S warmup to kinda calm my psyche before the work, but keep in mind that's after having the basics already grooved in to my body.  Like the rest of the folks who posted here I'll say stick with S&S until you feel you're at a plateau, have reached your goals or just feel worn out, then take some time to play with relaxing your body and psyche with breath methods, Systema or otherwise...then go back to strength work and you'll probably see a lot more to work with within what you're doing...and so on.

 

[Luke Luko]

After your S and S training, you can always do some walk breathing ladders and wave tension to relax your body. No problem at all.

 

[Iron Tamer]

Hardstyle breathing for power production etc, is vital to the performance of swings, etc in our system.

I have no training  or knowledge  in the specifics of systema breathing beyond seeing some video examples, but it appears to be very soft to me. I can only speculate on the actual application of the techniques.  I AM  familiar with various soft/relaxation breathing methods that work very well between sets of hard exercise. I cover some of the specifics in workshops, etc.

I recommend using HS breathing for the work and the systema breath for the recovery.

i am also unfamiliar with Coherent Breathing, so maybe i just need more info on the subject, but to suggest that everyone needs to do 5 breaths per minute doesn't make sense to me.  Some need more some need less.

 

[hardstyler]

Very nice thread. I was asking myself about the connection between kettlebell training and systema for some time. So thank you for sharing this.