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Old Forum S&S and Running

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DavThew

DavThew

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I've been training using S&S for a few months now, and I'm slowly approaching the sinister goals (I'm at 40kg with most of my sets.) I've just started training for a half marathon in 6 months time and feel like the almost daily heavy swings aren't going to give me adequate recovery time.

Most of my work to get towards the sinister goals is going to have to be on my get-ups due a recent shoulder injury (now fully recovered) which has left me with less upper body strength than before.

My current goals are a half marathon in less than 2 hours and completion of sinister goals (I'm in no rush to get to these though). Does anyone have any training schedule advice to avoid burning out?

 

Thanks
 
David - I think less is more applies to running more so than it does to strength training. There is a dogmatic approach in the running community that to be a better runner you must do a) a long stready run b) a tempo run c) hill runs each week. If you check out any 1/2 marathon training guide it will feature something along those lines. This is fine if you are strong, and you are, and you are a good runner, by that I mean you have good technique and can run well without causing yourself chronic injury due to bad form and poor running mechanics. If you clock up the miles on a weekly basis and you run with any dysfunction then you are doomed if you follow this model.

As is the mantra here - focus on the movement, in this case running, and get your technique - for you - nailed. I don't profess to be a running coach and can only pass on my experience. I took a long hard look at my running form a few years ago and transitioned into minimalist running style/barefoot, or natural running as I prefer to call it. Not saying you have to because you may well be a good efficient runner but you have to look at your running form. I experimented for a couple of years, nursed many injuries in the process before really getting easy with my form. I trained for a marathon by doing 1 easy 45 minute to 1 hour run a week for a few months before extending the run to a half marathon once. That was it for distance training. Never took a watch. I focused only on running and relaxing. The rest of the training was strength and conditioning about 3 times a week - ETK being a large bulk of that (3 months) and then bodyweight, sprint tabata and lactate threshold training (timed 400 m repeats).

Timed interval training is good for speed development and less running is involved!

I had, mind, done a few 1/2 marathon runs in the previous years before picking up a nasty IT band injury due to overuse. I did the marathon in 4 1/2 hours - I was 48 at the time. I didn't have a particular goal but probably could have been a bit faster, not much but a bit but significantly and no injuries bar a small blister. In all honesty I could have ran it again the next day, unlike a few people I knew, some experienced marathoners too, who were walking like crabs the next day. That was it for me. Ticked the box. I had previously entered 2 marathons but had to pull out because of injury, caused by running too much in the training. So, key point, get better at running by running better not simply clocking miles.

Train upto 8 miles and you'll get through a half on the day. Need to do 10k in 50 minutes if you have a 2 hour goal, work on that first. You won't do 2 hours if you do a 10 k in one hour, unless your negative splits are good and your training has been on endurance, which it isn't.  You've probably not got the time to seriously address your running form if, that is, you have poor form. Anyway, doesn't matter, less is more.

So S&S and running is a great combo.

 

good luck

alistair

 
 
Alistair - thanks for posting, I hope more people comment.

David - it sounds like you're already doing very well.  Maybe you're thinking of cutting back on kettlebells a couple months before the race?

When I get busy with hike/jogs I find I still need to fit in light swings and goblets for two reasons: to stay limber, and as a cardio option for indoors or fatigued legs.  I was doing stretching pullovers for shoulders but plan on trying getups next time.

+1 on barefoot/minimal.
 
I'm also closing in on the sinister goals, (need to shave a few secs off the swings and work up to a full 5 TGU's still) but I have found I've had to all but drop running to allow for recovery to achieve this.  Bear in mind I'm 36 and do a very physical job, so your recovery may be better or worse!

 

I'm going to add some contrary points to the above though.  I have experimented with minimalist shoes before and found them to contribute to foot injuries over volumes more than a few miles a week.  Sometimes I think we assume a false sense of superiority over endurance athletes.  I think we should accept that often they do know what they are doing - even if there can be some improvements made!  I know a few very strong amateur runners, (sub 3 hour marathons, sub 15 min 5k types) and they wear normal shoes and train fairly conventionally.  Most of them roll their eyes when I ask about the ideas we often espouse on strength forums about how runners should train!  Unfortunately,  some specific training and some progressive and meaningful volume is needed if you want to be the best runner you can be.

 

That doesn't mean there isn't room for supplementary swings etc, but if your aim is to run the 1/2 marathon as well as you can then you need to train accordingly.  Of course if you want to just plod around without stopping then almost anything will achieve that.
 
David, I know you didn't say anything about barefoot running, but I'm going to agree with Michael here. Wearing shoes is like wearing a squat suit, it instantly let's you do more. And it takes a long slow time to fully adapt to barefoot running.

Also, it has been pointed out by some in the barefoot community that it doesn't prevent injuries. Its just trading one type of injury for another. You still need smart programming.
 
I agree that too quick a transition into minimalist shoe running is a recipe for disaster, been there. I used to have a tip toe like gait, never letting my heel drop, resulting in out of proportion calf muscles the size of footballs which led to injury. I used to hit the ground too hard aswell and used to over-think the mechanics which led to tension, which further led to injury. Yes, patience and more patience which I never had at that time. Then the penny dropped. The penny would have dropped sooner had I not been so fixated on trying to get better rather than just letting it happen, if you can follow that.

I'm not a barefoot zealot by the way, just natural running - for the individual to find his or her natural gait with the primary aim of running without injury or to decrease the potential for injury relative to the volume of running. And this is an absolute truth - running shoes are only a recent invention, they just are. Being 50 now, as a kid - a very sporty, athletic kid - the only sports shoes available were flat-soled plimsoles or flat-soled addidas, puma, training shoes - sneakers for you guys in the US. When 20, some guys I worked with entered a marathon - a new thing for anyone other than olympic long distance runners and advised me that should I want to enter it I should invest in a pair of new running shoes. I wasn't a long distance runner - I played football  - but did and just trained by distance, got bored and never bothered. I didn't buy new trainers, I just ran with what I had - adiddas sambas I think probably. I was fit anyway and sub 40 min 10k was easy. Flash forward 20 years when I got into running again - the stress of life taking its toll on the body, various injuries, poor posture and crap running shoes coupled with a deluded belief that I was still 20 resulted in too many injuries, aches and pains that would easily fill a medical dictionary. So I changed it up, and as mentioned it took time.

I train barefoot on the beach or grass and tend not to on concrete - barefoot advocates would disagree with this, as the harder the surface the better it is for correcting form but I live in Scotland and the climate is a bit different and I find that I look to the ground more, which affects my posture. So I don't.  Dr Romanov - the guy behind Pose Method - advises flat soled shoes with minimal heel lift, not unlike the adiddas sambas of yesteryear. Would you lift kettlebells with heavy thick soled shoes? No you wouldn't. You would face the wrath of Pavel if you did.

If you subscribe to Geoff Neupert's excellent resources on KB doubles he recently put out an email with a technique cue to swing better - that was to use the toes, specifically the big toe rather than distributing the weight through the heel. This small cue, he says, activates the glutes. When you run, whether in shoes or not, the weight should be on the balls of your feet/big toe, directly under your centre of mass.  Do you see a similarity? Glute activation. If you run with an over stride or you heel strike or you wear big shoes that mute the foot's function then you are missing out. You just are. Training in barefeet helps you to get there - to get that connection. If you decide to wear shoes then wear shoes that do not hinder the foot's mechanics. Strength is from the ground up isn't it?

If you follow the idea that a get-up is a primal move, an innate functional human movement, running is primal on steroids, surely. It all starts with the foot.

Apologies, going off on a tangent here but like strength training, volume is added once a given technique is nailed. The same should be applied with running. Add the miles only on top of good technique - poor technique + high mileage = poor performance and injury risk. Quality technique + appropriate mileage = good performance and reduced injury risk.

And I absolutely agree - address your running form with care and diligence, don't just kick off your shoes and run a 10k. Totally nuts. Elite marathoners may well train in excess of 120 miles a week or whatever they do. The average Joe doesn't need to do that and I believe can manage a lot less than what is stated in a traditional running program where the focus is on clocking miles rather than quality miles.

 
 
David -

Many good points above.  I'm a former competitive runner and still do a few trail races and local events throughout the year.  I too am following S&S (currently mixing 32 & 40kg) and am planning on at least one 1/2 this year.  I agree 110% regarding the goblet squats & swings!

Please take a look at this link regarding Easy Endurance:

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2011/12/06/the-painless-path-to-endurance-plus-breville-winner-and-more/

Based on that style of training I can easily run a few minutes of my lifetime PR (1:18) which is fine at over 40.  Minimal foot wear is based on your bio-mechanics, foot strike/technique and foot strength, so see if that works for you beginning with short (<1m) jogs in a grassy field.  For what it's worth I'm around 185lbs @race weight and use a lightweight trainer for racing, normal show for long jogs, and minimal one for trails.

Hope that this helps and best of luck to you on your race.  Keep us posted how it goes.

 
 
I split my outdoor cardio into two points of focus: trail running and peak bagging (long, hilly hikes to get to the top of a peak).  Have been doing S & S somewhat consistently since the holidays other than taking 3 weeks off from all physical activity due to a nasty sinus infection.    For me personally I've found that I only need to do S & S two, maybe three times a week.

What I've found is that I am less sore after a long hike, especially ones that require steep downhill descents.  The other thing I have noticed is that my sense of balance seems to be better.  I'm tall & lanky and prone to tripping over my feet or rolling my ankles when I'm out trail running.  Because of this I was always cautious running or hiking downhill.  The last two months I've been able to go downhill a little faster and still feel confident about it.   Doing the TGU's is what I attribute this to.

For a running program I have had decent luck using the FIRST three day a week running program.  It's three days a week of running along with two days a week of cross training.   They have programs for 10k's, half marathons & marathons.
 
Thank you very much to everyone with their suggestions and help.

I'm now planning on running 2-3 times a week, one run being for distance, one for recovery and one random act of variety  (learning to run with minimalist shoes, cycling, some form of conditioning with a lighter kettlebell, hiking etc).

As above suggestions I'm going to focus entirely on running technique and continue my S&S training. Thankfully my beast should be arriving soon
 
David, get competent advice on building your running schedule, then fit S&S in a manner that does not conflict with it.  One rule: you may lift before distance running but not the other way around.
 
Will do!

 

Thank you for designing a program that can so easily be titrated to fit in with a sport.

Much appreciated sir!
 
Hi all - just tacking my own question on to David's thread.

In the summer endurance is my priority.  One favorite session is to take a 16 or 24 kg bell to the park;  barefoot nosebreathing jogging for 20 -45 minutes with a quick set of ten swings or goblets every few minutes to limber up.  I can hinge hard and make the 24 kg "heavy."  Does this make any sense in terms of physiology?  Sort of an amalgamation of the PM from ETK and StrongFirst Roadwork?  Or should I just swing at home and then go jogging?  Thanks much!
 
^Thanks Pavel, my endurance is OK.  You've written two-component minimalist programs.  Maybe swings & barefoot nosebreathing jogging on grass deserve an article for enduros. They are both "magic" exercises that get a lot done; we all know about swings, but the jogs get in sunlight, Vitamin D, circadian rhythms, earthing, bone density, posture, and podiatric & orthopedic health.

Steve Magness writes about elite runners.  The trend is towards concurrent periodization -- always working both aerobic base  and speed/strength.  Down here at the Average Joe level that suggests just being consistent with swings & jogs.  I tried 100% jogging and hated the flabby weakness.  Swings are mandatoy: 10 x 10, twice a week, or get sore.

Taleb:  don't fail to be smart, win at not being dumb.

Swings & jogs work great combined or separate; my only gripe with 10 x 10 swings is that it's over with too fast; so just combine them with jogs as a sort of Hamburger Helper and before you know it the session took a full 45 minutes.
 
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