Kettlebell S&S frequency and weight

[watchnerd]

I value your opinion. Would you characterize S&S as being effectively a 1h swing programme with the TGUs "filling in the gaps" or would you see the swings and TGUs as being both about equal in importance?

Aww, thanks.

I pretty much share the opinion that @Steve Freides already expressed in:

https://www.strongfirst.com/community/threads/when-changing-a-program-is-and-isnt-ok.6439/

To quote from what he wrote there:

Simple & Sinister

S & S also has multiple goals, but I think swings are the main focus, specifically a particular type of low-weight, high-force swing that clearly improves endurance and strength-endurance, and also yields strength improvements via mechanisms not yet fully understood. I think strength portion of S&S, the getup, is perhaps 20%, and the swing 80%.

Can you change the strength portion, the getups, and still have S & S's conditioning benefits? I think you can, and we have forum members who've followed S&S-like programs with less of a focus on the getup that prove this point. Can you substitute another strength move for the getup? Yes, e.g., try the military press and, at the end of each set, with the weight still at the top, perform a windmill or bent press.

So, yes, I think of S&S as primarily a 1H swing program with a mobility/strength "add on" in the form of the TGU, and if one has the option, there can be benefits to alternating the TGU in programming with other lifts and still fit the "ballistic pull + heavy upper body" meta-template that underlies Strongfirst philosophy on minimalist programming.

I do think the TGU has special value for chair-bound people who may not have been active in a long time, or perhaps ever, in terms of re-awakening movement patterns, as a form of active physical therapy.

And of course, if one has a goal to do super heavy 48 kg TGUs and hit Sinister, then, yes, it will need to be practiced a lot.

But generally, I don't think the TGU is a Tier 1 upper body strength or hypertrophy builder, so Intermediate lifters may be better off at some point moving the TGU to a "variety day", as is implied in ETK, to fill in the "in between strength":

The variety days are perfect for working on what Marty Gallagher called "in between strength", the angles and ranges of motion not addressed by traditional pulls and presses. Do get ups, windmills, and bent presses

I concur, and I always have variety days in my programming, although the activities vary by season. I also put my trigger sessions on variety days.

 

[Kozushi]

Aww, thanks.

I pretty much share the opinion that @Steve Freides already expressed in:

https://www.strongfirst.com/community/threads/when-changing-a-program-is-and-isnt-ok.6439/

To quote from what he wrote there:



So, yes, I think of S&S as primarily a 1H swing program with a mobility/strength "add on" in the form of the TGU, and if one has the option, there can be benefits to alternating the TGU in programming with other lifts and still fit the "ballistic pull + heavy upper body" meta-template that underlies Strongfirst philosophy on minimalist programming.

I do think the TGU has special value for chair-bound people who may not have been active in a long time, or perhaps ever, in terms of re-awakening movement patterns, as a form of active physical therapy.

And of course, if one has a goal to do super heavy 48 kg TGUs and hit Sinister, then, yes, it will need to be practiced a lot.

But generally, I don't think the TGU is a Tier 1 upper body strength or hypertrophy builder, so Intermediate lifters may be better off at some point moving the TGU to a "variety day", as is implied in ETK, to fill in the "in between strength":



I concur, and I always have variety days in my programming, although the activities vary by season. I also put my trigger sessions on variety days.

Awesome but you left me hanging! So, if I want to get beyond the getup, what lift(s) would I replace it with to accompany my 1h swings?

 

[watchnerd]

Awesome but you left me hanging! So, if I want to get beyond the getup, what lift(s) would I replace it with to accompany my 1h swings?

Generally, I think the Strongfirst minimalist idea of "light quick lifts + heavy grinds" is a good one.

You've already got the swing for the quick lifts.

What is your goal?

And what equipment do you have access to?

Is there a reason not to do the default progression of ROP (or other) overhead pressing?

And, lastly, what primal movement pattern are you not doing, or perhaps have never done?

For a change of pace, especially for someone who does martial arts, club work could be something one might consider exploring, at least for a cycle or two. I do light Indian Club work 5 days a week, and heavy club / mace work on my variety days.

But I wouldn't prioritize them if someone's main goal is to get swole.

 

[Kozushi]

Generally, I think the Strongfirst minimalist idea of "light quick lifts + heavy grinds" is a good one.

You've already got the swing for the quick lifts.

What is your goal?

And what equipment do you have access to?

Is there a reason not to do the default progression of ROP (or other) overhead pressing?

And, lastly, what primal movement pattern are you not doing, or perhaps have never done?

For a change of pace, especially for someone who does martial arts, club work could be something one might consider exploring, at least for a cycle or two. I do light Indian Club work 5 days a week, and heavy club / mace work on my variety days.

But I wouldn't prioritize them if someone's main goal is to get swole.

I'm just doing S&S as my main exercise. I'm happy to continue it as written all the way theoretically to Sinister eventually.
I'm not looking for a change, but if I could get stronger with another grind move with kettlebells over the TGU, then it might make sense to do it instead of TGUs. If I'd lose something by doing so then I'd not want to leave the TGUs behind or on hold. It seems like you'd recommend the ROP presses. I have done this before to some extent and know how to do them. I could resume these. In fact, I always do some of these as a "variety" movement. I have Indian maces. They are interesting.
TGUs are special though in how they challenge one's balance and position constantly and thus provide benefits beyond just "strength".
Based on what you wrote it might be smart for me to just simply do what I'm doing but take the pressing seriously now instead of just as a variety move. I'd still do S&S (I LOVE S&S!!!) but then twice or three times a week run a decent ROP style C&P session, or even just a military press session. I have the perfect kettlebell weights for this including 24, 28, 32, 40, 48.

 

[watchnerd]

If I'd lose something by doing so then I'd not want to leave the TGUs behind or on hold.

It's just a fact of training life -- all training is a compromise and trade offs amongst adaptations, even if temporary.

I think one of the most important things for an intermediate trainee is to determine priorities -- one can't be good at everything.

This can be a tough mental transition, because during the novice/GPP/newbie gains phase, everything seems to get better in parallel.

 

[Kozushi]

It's just a fact of training life -- all training is a compromise and trade offs amongst adaptations, even if temporary.

I think one of the most important things for an intermediate trainee is to determine priorities -- one can't be good at everything.

This can be a tough mental transition, because during the novice/GPP/newbie gains phase, everything seems to get better in parallel.

Thank you for your experienced advice. I'd rather master a few moves than be weak at many. Swings and getups serve me well.

 

[Nacho]

I keep coming back to read this thread. Such awesome analysis by you guys!

A little update:
I have been training 4-5 times a week with 32kg for past six weeks and once a week with 24kg. I think I have made good progress pumping up the frequency from 3 times a week to 5-6 times a week and I have enjoyed it, but I think now is time to see what happens with 36kg bell. I will drop frequency to 3-4 times a week and add one set every two weeks. If all goes well, I will start year 2021 with using 36kg for all sets. If I need to back off, I will back off.

8 weeks transition from 32 to 36 went by smoothly and now I have two sessions behind me, using only 36kg bell.
Must say it was a very good decision to go for it! What I noticed though, was my appetite went up quite a bit and I needed more sleep.
There has been many nights I slept like 9-10 hours.

I gained weight 3-4 kilos and none of it seems to be fat!
At 190cm, I went from 86-87 to around 90kg.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Kozushi
Removing the GU on alternate sessions may be interesting to get better at other things, once one is proficient in the GU, which is your case. However, GU is a fairly complex move, therefore this is difficult to do only one thing in lieu of it.

So if we want to be "minimalist", with big compounds which covers roughly everything, I would do:
- strict press (not necessarily C&P because there are already plenty of swings)
- goblet squat
- [optional core routine: HLR, HS plank, Wipers, Carries]
- [optional: pull ups]

I remember that when I ended up RoP with 24, it tooks me only a few days to get to Timeless Simple again. I just drilled the GU a little with 20 & 24 to secure the technique, using GTG for a few days. This means high doses of C&P covers pretty well core and shoulder strength, which is why I put the core as optional in the list above.

I always balance things out, so this is why I do pull ups to get the antagonist work of press. Plus it can always be useful...

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kozushi]

Hello,

@Kozushi
Removing the GU on alternate sessions may be interesting to get better at other things, once one is proficient in the GU, which is your case. However, GU is a fairly complex move, therefore this is difficult to do only one thing in lieu of it.

So if we want to be "minimalist", with big compounds which covers roughly everything, I would do:
- strict press (not necessarily C&P because there are already plenty of swings)
- goblet squat
- [optional core routine: HLR, HS plank, Wipers, Carries]
- [optional: pull ups]

I remember that when I ended up RoP with 24, it tooks me only a few days to get to Timeless Simple again. I just drilled the GU a little with 20 & 24 to secure the technique, using GTG for a few days. This means high doses of C&P covers pretty well core and shoulder strength, which is why I put the core as optional in the list above.

I always balance things out, so this is why I do pull ups to get the antagonist work of press. Plus it can always be useful...

Kind regards,

Pet'

All very interesting and a lot to digest here. I was always a big bodyweight training guy even alongside S&S. I decided to temporarily dump the bodyweight training back in September at the time when I decided to really focus in on mastering kettlebells. To be sure I have indeed made a lot of progress. It doesn't look like much from the outside but from the inside I'm feeling way more in control of my movements and much more comfortable with them, faster recovery times etc... The problem though is that I'm becoming a "one trick pony". I used to do all those bodyweight moves every day nearly, but now I'm almost afraid to restart them as I don't want to make myself too sore for my kettlebell ambitions... But in any case you are highlighting the press and the goblet squat. Good advice about not needing the cleans. This makes sense and I agree. I get enough of the swinging movement out of swings themselves. Basically my goal at present is the SFG1 certification. I'll eventually have to work personally face to face with a trainer I figure, but for now I'm trying to build my S&S to a bit past Simple, and to get my snatches up to snuff, as I've discovered my hand skin has toughened up sufficiently to train more regularly with them. I've gotten into a routine of 60 24kg snatches as a warmup before S&S. My technique is too "big" still but I'll see what I can do to make it more elegant through my own efforts for now. I'll also have to lose over 5kg, since 100kg is the limit for using the 24kg bell for the snatch test I think. Sadly, I lilke being heavier because I think it's giving me more stability for the heavier swings! (Maybe I'm wrong.)

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Kozushi
Indeed, if you have a very precise goal, which here is the kb SFG 1, then you need to drill the required techniques first and foremost. Bodyweight can be a nice supplement of course, but you are right as far as recovery is concerned. We always have to keep the goal and we have to avoid chasing two rabbits at the same time.

Once you'll get the SFG, sure you'll be able to add more bodyweight stuff into the mix to be more "complete" as you seem want to be

I like the way you found to drill the snatch while you are fresh, before the session, with a moderate volume !

When I was way lighter, I could pass it with the 20kg. But to get there, I spent a lot of time with blisters. You are smarter than me !

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kozushi]

Hello,

@Kozushi
Indeed, if you have a very precise goal, which here is the kb SFG 1, then you need to drill the required techniques first and foremost. Bodyweight can be a nice supplement of course, but you are right as far as recovery is concerned. We always have to keep the goal and we have to avoid chasing two rabbits at the same time.

Once you'll get the SFG, sure you'll be able to add more bodyweight stuff into the mix to be more "complete" as you seem want to be

I like the way you found to drill the snatch while you are fresh, before the session, with a moderate volume !

When I was way lighter, I could pass it with the 20kg. But to get there, I spent a lot of time with blisters. You are smarter than me !

Kind regards,

Pet'

No I'm not smarter than you. I'm kind of dumb actually, so if I'm dumb then you're... hahaha! (Just kidding!)
I figure if I can do even 40 good snatches daily, I can do 100 later when I'm training up for the test.

I've satisfied a lot of my curiosity about bodyweight moves. Ever since I was a youth I've been at them. Just stopped in the past summer to focus on kettlebelling and it's helping me.

 

[Kozushi]

Getting a bit off topic but now that I've temporarily ditched bodyweight training, I can feel how free weights can get much more of your body involved all at once than bodyweight moves. Bodyweight moves could be more important for certain things in life but overall if we're just talking strength chain, I'm voting for free weights as "more efficient". As Pavel keeps pointing out in various publications, you can't get a "big pull" movement out of anything in bodyweight training, and it's the "big pull" movements that activate by far the most muscle development all through the body. I was always upset in judo how I could do lots and lots of chinups and dips, and still be for most practical purposes, "weak". Unless you can support force through your lower back, from tip to toe, you're for most practical purposes in life, "weak".
But, bodyweight strength is important for its own reasons, and free weights can't replicate it. Like someone wrote here a while back, bodyweight will get you over a fence or out of a ditch - pretty darn important stuff if you ask me!

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Kozushi
This is not necessarily that much "out of topic".

If we consider the TGU as an example, this is a great move which teaches how to move something, while being in "weird" positions. This requires a blend of strength, mobility and balance. In daily life, this frequently happens: lifting something which as no / weird grip and then moving around.

We can relate this to the topic of frequency. Assuming we practice judo 3 times a week, this is also great to practice S&S with a reasonnable weight on alternate days. To a certain extent, it will balance things out because it works on both side (50 swings per side, 5 GU per side). In judo, we most of the time practice the throw on our natural side.

Bodyweight, as you mention, may teach tension and is useful as long as you do not have to move something other than your own body. Moving something or someone is a different animal. The force and tension you know how to generate with bodyweight training has to be "converted" by skill and technique to lifting the person or stuff. This transfer may be fast, but is not "direct".

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kozushi]

Hello,

@Kozushi
This is not necessarily that much "out of topic".

If we consider the TGU as an example, this is a great move which teaches how to move something, while being in "weird" positions. This requires a blend of strength, mobility and balance. In daily life, this frequently happens: lifting something which as no / weird grip and then moving around.

We can relate this to the topic of frequency. Assuming we practice judo 3 times a week, this is also great to practice S&S with a reasonnable weight on alternate days. To a certain extent, it will balance things out because it works on both side (50 swings per side, 5 GU per side). In judo, we most of the time practice the throw on our natural side.

Bodyweight, as you mention, may teach tension and is useful as long as you do not have to move something other than your own body. Moving something or someone is a different animal. The force and tension you know how to generate with bodyweight training has to be "converted" by skill and technique to lifting the person or stuff. This transfer may be fast, but is not "direct".

Kind regards,

Pet'

Pet,

That is a very shrewd analysis. Thank you for that. What kind of training I do and why come down to a lot of logical and scientific reasons, like how you lay it all out. The way you have laid this all out is very helpful for me. S&S has always stood the test of "very practical strength training" all through the last four years in my mind. You are very experienced in both bodyweight training and in kettlebells. I think you have settled my mind about the relative benefits of each. It comes down especially to how you point out that the bodyweight moves may make you strong, but learning how to apply this strength to people or free weights, is difficult to do!

By the way, today I did 100 snatches with the 24kg bell. This is a new kind of endeavour for me. It's a lighter weight than my 32 (or even 28) for S&S. I can really feel its lightness, but at the same time it's a different trajectory from swings and it has the lockout static "push" to it... It's almost like an "all in one" kind of move. Quite intriguing! Clearly having S&S behind me makes the snatch not too hard to start doing. The TGUs help with the lockout and the swings with the "high pull" aspect of them. I'm "feeling it" a lot more in my forearms than I do for a typical S&S session. (Today I did 100 X 24kg snatches, 20 X 32kg 1 handed swings, 10 X 32kg getups.)

I think my daily S&S routine will include 40 snatches in the warmup, and I'll sometimes do 100 if I feel like it.

I can feel how even if the snatch isn't necessarily going to be someone's "daily bread" kettlebell move (like for S&S people - it's 1 hand swings and getups for us) the snatch definitely uses all the qualities a good kettlebeller needs and is an excellent test of those qualities. It clearly takes good swings and getups to enable someone to start doing good snatches.

 

[pet']

Hello @Kozushi

Your post makes me think about this article, which compares swings and snatches: Swing Versus Snatch | StrongFirst

I think your strategy to do both is well-thought because it will allow you to reap the benefits of both moves. In addition, you restrict the volume to 40, which seems quite good to me. Indeed, it will do a few important things:
- polishing the technique
- progressively work on the grip / skin resistance
- progressively increase joints and ligaments strength

Sometimes, we read that snatches lead to pain, aches and injuries. I guess that most of the time, this can be due to too much volume too soon, with possibly a not that perfect technique. Occasional practice of 100 snatches when you feel like it, as you mention, is something I use as well. In general, when we feel we can do something, then we do it without too much trouble. I do not know why, maybe it creates a positive spirit or some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

The bulk of my routine is done with bodyweight. However, I still move weights using GTG because I noticed this is the way I feel and perform the best. Indeed, for a while, I did bodyweight only. I realized after a while than lifting even 20kg C&P did not feel "heavy" but just "weird" and uncomfortable, because I was not used to it anymore. Same thing for suitcase and farmer carry. Of course, the day after it was fine, but still. This is why, I think that getting the body used to carry or moving something is crucial to learn how to efficiently transfer the force, as you mentioned.

This GTG is done everyday, but not necessarily heavy. The only real heavy things I do are rucking (up to 44kg) and all sort of carries (up to 14kg backpack + 32kg in one hand + 24kg in the other...for a bodyweight of 65kg). This is done on alternate day, as a conditioning routine. My other one is simply running.

I have noticed that I can get my best "performance" when I do on a daily basis some sort of GTG with moderately heavy carry or lifts (up to 24, rarely more). This permits me to really getting my body used to move with a weight, without a specific training structure. I found this pretty "real world oriented". If I feel tired, I do less with lighter weight. This is very self-regulating. Up to a point, I think that nature loves a slight dose of daily variation, with a base of something constant.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[offwidth]

Up to a point, I think that nature loves a slight dose of daily variation, with a base of something constant.

Interesting concept... one that I concur with based upon personal experience

 

[Kozushi]

Hello @Kozushi

Your post makes me think about this article, which compares swings and snatches: Swing Versus Snatch | StrongFirst

I think your strategy to do both is well-thought because it will allow you to reap the benefits of both moves. In addition, you restrict the volume to 40, which seems quite good to me. Indeed, it will do a few important things:
- polishing the technique
- progressively work on the grip / skin resistance
- progressively increase joints and ligaments strength

Sometimes, we read that snatches lead to pain, aches and injuries. I guess that most of the time, this can be due to too much volume too soon, with possibly a not that perfect technique. Occasional practice of 100 snatches when you feel like it, as you mention, is something I use as well. In general, when we feel we can do something, then we do it without too much trouble. I do not know why, maybe it creates a positive spirit or some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

The bulk of my routine is done with bodyweight. However, I still move weights using GTG because I noticed this is the way I feel and perform the best. Indeed, for a while, I did bodyweight only. I realized after a while than lifting even 20kg C&P did not feel "heavy" but just "weird" and uncomfortable, because I was not used to it anymore. Same thing for suitcase and farmer carry. Of course, the day after it was fine, but still. This is why, I think that getting the body used to carry or moving something is crucial to learn how to efficiently transfer the force, as you mentioned.

This GTG is done everyday, but not necessarily heavy. The only real heavy things I do are rucking (up to 44kg) and all sort of carries (up to 14kg backpack + 32kg in one hand + 24kg in the other...for a bodyweight of 65kg). This is done on alternate day, as a conditioning routine. My other one is simply running.

I have noticed that I can get my best "performance" when I do on a daily basis some sort of GTG with moderately heavy carry or lifts (up to 24, rarely more). This permits me to really getting my body used to move with a weight, without a specific training structure. I found this pretty "real world oriented". If I feel tired, I do less with lighter weight. This is very self-regulating. Up to a point, I think that nature loves a slight dose of daily variation, with a base of something constant.

Kind regards,

Pet'

The swing and snatch comparison is summarized here from the article you linked:

The Final Score in the Swing Versus the Snatch​

In summary, it is a tie:

• Both exercises are equally effective in building power.
• Both are equally effective in upper back development.
• The swing is superior for posterior chain and midsection development and strength.
• Per rep, the snatch burns more fat than the swing.
• The snatch has an advantage over the swing in grip development.
• The snatch demands great thoracic and shoulder mobility.

Provided mobility is not an issue and you are skilled in both, which one should you choose?


A good analogy is the barbell squat and deadlift. Both exercises work more or less the same muscle groups, yet each has its own edge. One can choose to do both to get the most benefits — at the expense of more complex programming. Or go minimalist, select one lift and polish it to perfection.

*****

I'll take it further, since the points above are comparing the two exercises assuming the same weight is being used. If it's a 32kg swing versus a 24kg snatch then this will be the result I think:

• The swing builds more power.
• The swing is more effective in upper back development.
• The swing is far superior for posterior chain and midsection development and strength.
• Per rep, the snatch burns more fat than the swing.
• The snatch has an advantage over the swing in grip development.
• The snatch demands great thoracic and shoulder mobility.

Based on this, if it's fat loss, the snatch wins, but in all other ways the swing wins. So, I'm liking my current plan of 40 to 60 24kg snatches as warmup before S&S with the 32kg.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Kozushi
As SFG calls for a snatch test, you can not really cut it away. Of course, your previous experience in swings may make the learning curve of snatch faster, which is great ! Nonetheless, to get good at a technique, one has to practice it, and this is what you are doing

However, assuming your judo training and more general goals, I think swings are better suited.

So I would do the same plan as you: I would keep the swings as the "bulk" of routine. I would just add the "minimum dose" to get good at snatches (technique, conditioning baseline, etc...), without modifying my programming. Then, as long as 40 per day works, I would keep it. As you mentioned, pushing here and there a little more to see how it goes sounds pretty clever and healthy to me, because it will not bother overall recovery and programming

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kozushi]

Hello,

@Kozushi
As SFG calls for a snatch test, you can not really cut it away. Of course, your previous experience in swings may make the learning curve of snatch faster, which is great ! Nonetheless, to get good at a technique, one has to practice it, and this is what you are doing

However, assuming your judo training and more general goals, I think swings are better suited.

So I would do the same plan as you: I would keep the swings as the "bulk" of routine. I would just add the "minimum dose" to get good at snatches (technique, conditioning baseline, etc...), without modifying my programming. Then, as long as 40 per day works, I would keep it. As you mentioned, pushing here and there a little more to see how it goes sounds pretty clever and healthy to me, because it will not bother overall recovery and programming

Kind regards,

Pet'

The confounding factor is I like better how I'm starting to look with that "fat loss" effect. Snatches seem to be changing my appearance a lot, which is weird considering I've only been at them for about three or four weeks in any significant way.

Actually, the priority until the SFG test has to be snatches over swings anyhow. The limiting factor here is to not overdo it and hurt my tendons or tear muscles. The down swing of a snatch is pretty intense! I wonder if I can keep up 100 a day... Hmmm... A bit afraid to even try though.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Kozushi
As devil is in the details, here is an article with tips for snatch technique, if you did not already have it:

Lion’s Roar Kettlebell Snatch | StrongFirst

Perfect your kettlebell snatch technique with the Lion’s Roar.

www.strongfirst.com

The Critical Difference Breathing Can Make in the Snatch Test | StrongFirst

We must practice proper breathing under extreme circumstances in order to have it become what feels most natural during competition.

www.strongfirst.com

4 Tips to Make the SFG Snatch Test Easier | StrongFirst

This program can fit into your current training without interrupting it. It will make your SFG snatch test easier - and far less dramatic of an experience.

www.strongfirst.com

Here are planning and pacing ideas:
Energy Systems and the Snatch Test | StrongFirst (this one may be great: high frequency, progressive increase in volume)
A Solid Game Plan for Acing the Snatch Test | StrongFirst (this one would be a peak programming leading to the certification)

Below a few other planning and pacing ideas

The Timeless Solution for Swings, Snatches, and More | StrongFirst

The performance strategy that prioritizes physiological progress by using the talk test and tracking your total session's duration.

www.strongfirst.com

Ace your Snatch Test Training Plan | StrongFirst

Use this eleven week training plan to ace your kettlebell instructor snatch test while also improving your one-arm swing technique.

www.strongfirst.com

55-Seconds to Kettlebell Snatch Test Success | StrongFirst

Learn how the 55s interval snatch plan helps you avoid two common kettlebell snatch test pitfalls: heart rate peaking and rushing through.

www.strongfirst.com

Hope that helps !

Kind regards,

Pet'