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Old Forum S&S, I seem to be doing it wrong...

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DaveM

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I started S&S as soon as it appeared on Amazon Kindle. I was, and am, very excited about the <i>near</i> everyday aspect of it as I see that as something that contributes to forming good habits. My problem, even though I've been out of the Corps for 43 years, I'm still ate up with gung ho.

I've been making good progress (upping the bell size set by set) . I went back to work after the end of year break and was surrounded by sick people, and I caught a cold. That's supposed to just be irritating but early in catching it I noticed weakness (wobbly get-ups) and had to back off. At the moment I'm skipping training completely to avoid getting myself hurt (still sick). I suspect that the very noticeable weakness that came with a common cold is a dead canary telling me that I'm pushing too hard for the frequency of training that I'm trying to maintain. All that to ask this...

How do the gung ho among you progress and not push too hard for this program? I tend to not go to failure by making "that got hard to maintain proper form" my tell. I suspect that my limit should be sooner. But I don't know where that is since finding a limit implies finding it. What is the tell? How do you progress without pushing too hard? Seems like a stupid question, but I struggle with it.
 
I recently began utilizing the timed nasal breathing concepts from the book.  Although I am still wanting to learn more about breathing concepts in general, I think that I am using the breath concepts more or less correctly during my practice of S&S.  I would like to eventually work down to five nasal breaths between sets of swings, but I initially started out with ten nasal breaths.  I also cut back to sets of five swings, down from sets of ten.  I have already built back up to sets of seven.  Progress has been good.  I do five nasal breaths between each getup.  The 24 is pretty easy, and I will jump to the 32 again.  I will probably start with ten breaths between getups at first when I go back to the 32.

Since I began utilizing the nasal breaths between sets rather than gulping air between sets, I feel invigorated after each workout.  I don't work up near as much of a sweat.  Forcing myself to take a predetermined number of nasal breaths between work sets guarantees that I will not drive myself into the ground during S&S practice sessions, but progress comes none the less.  It is difficult to get away from the whole "No pain, no gain" mentality, or the fact that Rocky was just a movie.
 
I'm currently using a timer to govern 50:50 work:rest in 5 min and 5 breaths between sets seems inconceivable to me. I'd have to drop bell size to the point that I'd drop S&S and do something else. I must be misunderstanding what you wrote.
 
I quit using a timer to tell me when to begin the next set of swings or getups.  Instead, I take a predetermined number of nasal breaths.  The slower the breaths, the longer the rest period.  Breath quickly and the rest period is over quickly.  Drop back down to something you can handle and build back up.  It is in the book.  In the beginning either reduce the number of swings or take more than five breaths, or both.  The goal is to do 10 x 10 swings with 5 breaths between each set, but start out with something easier than that and work up to it.  It might seem difficult at first, but concentrate on being relaxed and it will get easier and easier.  This is another one of those "aha moments" where you will never go back.  Try it, you will like it.
 
I've reread the book at least ten times and that slipped past me. Gonna read it again. I saw time and work:rest ratio with bumping weight one set at a time which made sense to me so I thought I understood. That still does not resolve the dilemma of my question since I'll be, at a hard to control emotional level, pushing even harder to get the weight up.
Over the years I allowed myself to get fat and pathetically weak. Last year I lost a ton of weight and made a big improvement in strength, but I'm still not strong. Dropping the weight back to where I started means instead of being a very fat weakling I'll be a little bit fat weakling. I'll have to find a way to not consider a years work a crushing failure and where that could lead with that.

 

That might sound lame, but what goes on in my head controls both my actions and my results.

 
 
Well, page 66 which I seem to ignore since it seems contrary to the rest of the book. Simple isn't as simple as I thought. Thanks for pointing to it. Now I must figure out how to deal with it and hope I'm not still lost in a fog of misunderstanding.
 
I can't tell what page I am on in the Kindle version, but it is in the chapter about breath mastery.

Also look at this recent thread:

http://www.strongfirst.com/topic/i-strongly-urge-you-to-implement-breath-timing/

 

 
 
I bought the book after buying the Kindle version. I found the breathing part. Since I'm less than a month from age 64 I need to pay more attention to this aspect of my training. A year of kettlebell training, modest as my gains have been, have had one very negative effect. Regaining about 20 years of work capacity causes me to tend toward thinking and acting like a young man again. That can be hazardous at my age. Little did I think that that would be one of my issues.
 
I just read that other thread. it seems to address the issue of controlling intensity and recovery. When this cold goes away and I can breath through my nose I'll have to give that approach a try. I guess the humbling that I'll have to submit myself to will be good for me. Thanks again.
 
Dave, I'm only 47 but I can relate to the pushing to hard mentality, and realizing I'm not 25 anymore.  Something I've noticed on the forum is a few people have already made the Simple standard.  Now that is great for them, but I can't help but think that they were not very far off those standards to begin with.  I'm really looking forward to the people that accomplish that Goal after 6 to 12 months.  Like myself.  These people will have slowly and steadily progressed while keeping the goal the goal.  I learned One important thing from CC, Keep strength in the bank.  Not training on the edge, holding back!  Adding only one heavy rep/set maybe every 2 weeks?  I keep reminding myself that this is not a race.  This is a life style.

Al
 
Thank you Pavel. It isn't the cold that stopped me so much as it was the straw that broke the camel's back on the serious overtraining that I was doing. I literally became too weak for my getups.

I started with two hand swings which left way too much rest 50 reps (5x10) in 5 min so I went to single arm 100 reps (5x10 ea).

Then my focus went to adding sets with a heavier KB (I forgot work rest ratio) and when I timed myself I wound that I was resting to long.

I went to 50:50 in 5 with the same weight, every day (serious huffing and puffing rests).

The cold hit and I broke down under what should have been a trivial stressor.

Since you have taken notice of this, I must ask about the hierarchy of conflict resolution in S&S. What has priority over what?

* Breath controlling work rest ratio (which I was missing ).

* Work rest ratio equal time as a goal in a given length of time.

* Increasing the weight (my ultimate goal)

Also, for the getups, in the other thread I notice people talking about rest between reps. I've read enough about the hazards of lying down between sets to make me avoid that and put pauses in between the parts of the getup to stretch it out to 10 min with continuous work. I thought that lying down resting (that's where I am between getups) was an invitation to a heart attack and was to be avoided. Would the nasal breathing rest negate that?

I hope that I don't seem to be thick as a brick but I've become confused by something that you worked hard to make simple.

I do really like S&S, but I've got to do it right and control stress/fatigue since the daily training appeals to me  but assaults my tendency to do more if I don't know how to properly govern that. I'll return to training but will have to wait on the nasal breathing thing until I can breath through my nose (I'd suffocate trying today).
 
Been out of the Corps for a few months now So I can identify with your problem.  This was the hardest part for me too.

The first day I did S&S, I picked up a 24kg bell and did the swings in 5 minutes and the get ups in 10.  I was trashed, but i did it.  The second day I did all the sets of both exercises with a 32kg bell.  The third day I did not do much moving at all.  My body was sore and my hands and wrists were in great pain.  I read the book again and decided to try it the way Pavel said to do it.

I swung only the 24kg bell for about two more weeks.  When I "owned the feat" I moved up slowly.  About 4 weeks later now I am doing all the sets with a 32kg.  This time it feels much easier.  It is really an "easy strength" type program.  Don't go into it hoping to feel "worked out".  Its a recharge.  Dont expect anything going into it.  Start lighter than you think you need to, and progress slower than you want to.  The heavier KB will still be there next month.

Read the Dan John article on Bus bench VS Park bench programs.  This is a park bench workout that just might surprise you with it's results and benefits along the way.  Get on a bus bench when you have a specific goal and the need to attain it, otherwise just do S&S and enjoy what comes to you.
 
Btw, I think you have listed your progression priorities in a good order.  I don't know the official SFG answer, but this is what I did.

Swing 10 breath 5.  When this is comfortable, time the sets using the same breathing pattern.  Depending on how fast you breath, I would bet you end up just a little over 5 minutes.

At this point I set a timer to beep every 30 seconds.  It would take me about 15 seconds to do 10 swings, then I had 15 seconds to rest and switch hands.  That's 5 min. Total.  When you know you can do this anytime, any place, cold, wet, tired, hungry...Then go up a bell size...for two of the 10 sets (one each arm).   Then add sets as you are able.  Also forget the timer for a while.  Just go by a number of breaths.  I am doing 10 breaths now and will be reducing that as I get used to the heavier bell.  And when I hit 5 breaths the process will recycle.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi Brother.
 
Thanks, That's the path I'm going to take unless Pavel tells me I still don't get it. Semper Fi

 
 
Dave,  I'm not an SFG so take this for what you may, but I find that I have similar problems with over-training.  I am 40 now but I was prone to do this even in my 20s.  I can always bang out a workout despite over-training and I will keep doing it week-after-week until my body forces me to take two weeks off, usually do to a severe illness or muscular injury.

In hindsight, there was poor program design, plus work and personal stress, poor eating and sleeping, etc at play.  I've cleaned a lot of that up and I been using the Bioforce HRV system for the past three months and it has been very instructive in teaching me to listen to my body while still hitting the workouts pretty hard.

All that said, S&S appears to be designed to keep you below that over-training threshold. If your work capacity is greater than your recovery capacity, I'd imagine you could still overdo if you start with too much gusto.  You might consider just dropping back in bell size and hitting that daily until you recover your energy.  That size will likely feel effortless but it is worth doing in terms of stimulating changes in your body.  Once your strength returns, progress back up to the heavier bell in a slow manner as outlined in the book.

Good luck,

Chris

 

 

 

 
 
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