Nutrition S&S on a calorie deficit

[jhpowers]

Okay, here are the parameters of my problem.
(1) I currently weigh 172-174 lbs.
(2) I do best when I weigh below 166lbs. When my weight gets over this number, I predictably begin to snore. This creates understandable marital discord and misery for all.
(3) Part of the reason for my weight gain has been that I am doing S & S and closing in on the 32kg bell. This has made me hungry and I've rationalized eating freely by telling myself that strength is the current priority.
(4) I typically eat in an IF pattern with a feeding window between 3:00 and 7:00. This pattern of IF historically allows for weight maintenance but I don't really lose weight from IF alone without counting calories. Since I've been focusing on strength, I've been breaking this pattern and having a protein shake every morning.
(5) I don't control the content of the evening meal because my wife cooks and her dietary beliefs align with what I would call the "yoga diet"...lots of whole grains, rices, starches coupled with lentils, etc and sparing portions of meat. Her cooking makes low carb approaches difficult to negotiate, but I do supplement protein as necessary (I've got a stash of "emergency meat" in the freezer).

So, in order to take my weight back down to a level that will keep me from snoring, I feel like I should reduce calories to about 1800 for a period of time. I'm wondering whether people have done S & S on a significant deficit. I've heard stories of people getting injured when lifting on a deficit. IS that a risk? Will it dramatically impede my march towards simple?

Thanks.

 

[Sean M]

My body reacts in weird ways on calorie deficit. If I don't eat well in my IF eating window (I fast 16-20 hours 5-6 days a week), my S&S session the next day is not as strong, especially if I train fasted.

From what I've read, it is not the best way to lose weight (I assume you mean body fat - you would not want to lose 8 pounds of just lean issue I assume?).

IF helps lower insulin resistance, which allows fat to be released for energy when you're not eating. The compressed eating window helps rev up your metabolism to coast you through the next fasting period. This is preferred over chronic calorie deficit, where you end up with either an increase in hunger or a lowering of energy to meet the new demand.

To your last question - yes, I think a caloric deficit is fundamentally at odds with building strength to achieve the Simple standard. You have to eat for the goal. If the goal is fat loss, strength gains will be slower or reversed as your body is in fat-burning mode (exercise maintains or limits loss of lean muscle mass). If the goal is strength, the muscles need to be fed. With IF you will be in the best position to do that with minimal fat gain (e.g. fasting increases insulin sensitivity and depletes muscle glycogen, so the carbs you do eat go to muscles and much less to create new fat stores), but I don't believe you can "cut" your way to strong.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@jhpowers
Training on a calorie deficit permits to torch fat even faster than the usual. Nonetheless, it will create fatigue pretty fast because it means gaining strength without properly fueling your body. On a medium term, recovery will be longer and strength gain slower.

Training while tired can lead to the same consequences than overtraining (risk of injury, permanent fatigue, etc...).

An option can be reaching Simple as wanted without modifying diet too much as the beginning. Then, when you feel comfortable with the program, you can cut no more 250 cals to your daily eating. For instance if you are currently at 2250, you decrease to 2000 during a few weeks. If you are not tired or sore, you can cut again. As soon as you feel fatigue, you add again some cals.

Some folks manage pretty well drastic changes in both training and diet, some others (like me) require doing these changes separately.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[jhpowers]

To your last question - yes, I think a caloric deficit is fundamentally at odds with building strength to achieve the Simple standard. You have to eat for the goal. If the goal is fat loss, strength gains will be slower or reversed as your body is in fat-burning mode (exercise maintains or limits loss of lean muscle mass). If the goal is strength, the muscles need to be fed. With IF you will be in the best position to do that with minimal fat gain (e.g. fasting increases insulin sensitivity and depletes muscle glycogen, so the carbs you do eat go to muscles and much less to create new fat stores), but I don't believe you can "cut" your wa

THat's pretty much what I thought. Maybe, I can slow down for just a few weeks. I really only need to take 5-10lbs off to get out of the snore zone.

An option can be reaching Simple as wanted without modifying diet too much as the beginning. Then, when you feel comfortable with the program, you can cut no more 250 cals to your daily eating. For instance if you are currently at 2250, you decrease to 2000 during a few weeks. If you are not tired or sore, you can cut again. As soon as you feel fatigue, you add again some cals.

I like this idea. Maybe, I'll reduce to 2000 cal instead of the 1800 that I had planned. See how it goes and then move from there.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

You can definitely increase your strength while on a deficit if 2 requirements are met:
1) Your deficit isn't too big
2) You have enough excess body fat*

As an example, let's say you need 2000cal per day to keep your lean tissue, cover your bodys needs (brain function, digestion, etc.), cover your activities (training, walking, moving in general) and recovery from those activities -> maintaining your current weight.
If you cut calories and get below that 2000cal mark your body needs to make up for that by e.g. not fully recovering or metabolising lean tissue. If you happen to have enough excess body fat*, the body will fill those needs by metabolising that fat.
So you could only consume 1700cals without affecting recovery or losing lean tissue, because your body will fill that 300cal deficit by burning fat.
Of course this is an simplification, because there are limits to how much fat can be metabolised per day and when the body burns fat instead of lean tissue. For example in an individual with 30% BF the body will burn mostly fat, while in an individual with 8% and high amount of lean tissue the body will most likely metabolise a good amount of lean tissue together with some fat. That's why it get's harder and harder and later on impossible to build muscle and strength while burning fat when your BF gets lower and lower.
Because of all of that and more the recommendations vary from a 200-500cal deficit per day, but not more!

The hard part is knowing how much calories you need per day to determine your deficit.
Let's have another example. You use one of those cal calculators on the internet and it says you need to consume 2000cals to maintain weight. So you decide to go for 1700cals to create a 300cal deficit. The calculator is off by 350cal and you actually need 2350cals. So now your 300cal deficit just turned into a 650cal deficit, which is too big to be filled only by burning fat. Your body doesn't fully recover anymore and in result your strength suffers. Doesn't have to be like that, but it's a strong possibility.


*I really can't tell you how much is "enough", but I'd say if you can see your abs or are close to seeing your abs you don't have enough excess fat. If you don't, you have enough excess fat

 

[Sean M]

You can definitely increase your strength while on a deficit if 2 requirements are met:
1) Your deficit isn't too big
2) You have enough excess body fat*

As an example, let's say you need 2000cal per day to keep your lean tissue, cover your bodys needs (brain function, digestion, etc.), cover your activities (training, walking, moving in general) and recovery from those activities -> maintaining your current weight.
If you cut calories and get below that 2000cal mark your body needs to make up for that by e.g. not fully recovering or metabolising lean tissue. If you happen to have enough excess body fat*, the body will fill those needs by metabolising that fat.
So you could only consume 1700cals without affecting recovery or losing lean tissue, because your body will fill that 300cal deficit by burning fat.
Of course this is an simplification, because there are limits to how much fat can be metabolised per day and when the body burns fat instead of lean tissue. For example in an individual with 30% BF the body will burn mostly fat, while in an individual with 8% and high amount of lean tissue the body will most likely metabolise a good amount of lean tissue together with some fat. That's why it get's harder and harder and later on impossible to build muscle and strength while burning fat when your BF gets lower and lower.
Because of all of that and more the recommendations vary from a 200-500cal deficit per day, but not more!

The hard part is knowing how much calories you need per day to determine your deficit.
Let's have another example. You use one of those cal calculators on the internet and it says you need to consume 2000cals to maintain weight. So you decide to go for 1700cals to create a 300cal deficit. The calculator is off by 350cal and you actually need 2350cals. So now your 300cal deficit just turned into a 650cal deficit, which is too big to be filled only by burning fat. Your body doesn't fully recover anymore and in result your strength suffers. Doesn't have to be like that, but it's a strong possibility.


*I really can't tell you how much is "enough", but I'd say if you can see your abs or are close to seeing your abs you don't have enough excess fat. If you don't, you have enough excess fat

This is a good continuation of my post. I should've noted that with extra body fat one had more room for deficit because your own fat stores can supply the shortfall for a time.

 

[jhpowers]

Well, the two methods that I've tried to measure fat% are my Withings scale and the Skulpt device. My body fat varies between 18 and 25 percent based on these methods. Again, it seems like the best approach is empirical, to drop my calories to 2,000 and see how much energy that I have and then drop them more depending on the messages that I get from my body.

 

[pet']

Hello,

It is often advised not to exceed a 200 / 250 (if you have lots to lose) at each drop. Otherwise, the cut off is too significant and you get tired. Plus, the body can react by consuming a bit less with a kind of "stand by mode"

Kind regard,

Pet'

 

[Antti]

I would advise to pass on the tests on the program, like doing swings in 10 minutes etc, and take plenty of time to recover between sets. Done that way, I don't really see a big problem with S&S and a calorie deficit.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@jhpowers
In addition to the above, you can also adapt your daily food intake (in addition to an eventual calorie cut off) in function of your daily expenditures. For instance, if you do not train one day, then you reduce carbs this day.

I use this "strategy" with pretty good results. I permits to avoid fatigue. Less effort = less food, more effort = more food. The balance is difficult to find.

I do not want to overthink my diet. Nonetheless, you can also count your calories with some web tool, in function of your daily needs. From there, you can decide how many cals you will cut off (carbs + fat)

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[ali]

Do you know that your snoring is due to excess weight/fat? You know you but have you considered other triggers? Alcohol? Breathing control? ie, mouth breathing v nasal breathing. And, maybe related, your stress levels during those times you snore. And sleeping position too.
What's your height and age?
I wouldn't have thought a few pounds would matter much in terms of increased snoring unless you were overweight, like a lot. Unless you are very short, you are not overweight. And by being a few pounds heavier than your ideal, that poundage may be lean mass and you want to keep that really, no? But I only say that as a non-snorer, I have no experience on the matter and may only be offering you some unnecessary drivel. Other than the fact that I snore like a trooper when I'm drunk!! My wife is a champion snorer, I may add. I kick her in the ribs and she stops! Another possible diet free intervention to consider!
As far as the 32 is concerned, I'd eat in preference to not eating. My appetite was huge. (Still is). I was roughly your weight, 53, 5'10'. Mostly food, most of the time. I don't have a clue about calories nor macros. It's food or it isn't. I just don't eat much of the latter and lots of the former.

 

[jhpowers]

@ali

Well, I quit drinking. So it's not that. Aging seems to be a process of giving up vices. It may well vary with my stress level. Yes, sleeping position matters.

But I've been up and down about six times and 166ish seems to be some sort of threshold for me. It is eerily reproducible.

I'm 48yo, 5'5" and weighed in at 169 this morning.

 

[Jeffro]

I'm doing S&S mostly in a calorie deficit. Some of the time has been at maintenance. I'm progressing fine, mixed 24/32kg on week 9 now, so it's doable. If you want to be lighter, and your wife wants you to lighter, do it. Even if it slows down S&S progress, which is more important? Hitting some arbitrary strength goal on an arbitrary schedule, or making yourself and your wife happier?

Strangely enough, S&S doesn't seem to make me hungry, as long as I skip goblet squats. Any kind of squat makes me instantly hungry, even just a 16kg PGS. And I mean instantly, like prying the first rep I get my first "oh, I can tell I haven't eaten yet" feeling. By the third rep I'm thinking about getting a snack before continuing, of course I don't (usually). I can do S&S minus PGS fasted, and stay fasted for hours, though lately I'm not intentionally IFing and it usually works out that I practice immediately before my first meal of the day.

It's been a month, any update?

 

[jhpowers]

Well, I've haven't made much progress with weight loss. I'm down about three pounds. I had a two week vacation and have been trying to find my S&S groove again. I am trying to cut out all sugar and reduce carbs as best as I can.

 

[offwidth]

Aging seems to be a process of giving up vices.

Tell me about it...

You're still young. Wait till you get to my age. You can't seem to have anything enjoyable to eat or drink.

You wake up one day and look into the mirror and say "what the &#%* just happened"

 

[The Nail]

I am trying to cut out all sugar and reduce carbs as best as I can.

Sounds like you are coming from a similar background as me, so you might find my path useful.
I took my bodyweight down to 169lbs with a soft 33" waist (from 205lbs), and then did an extended strength cycle, hit Simple, and went back up to 177lbs - still with a 33" waist. But now my waist is a far harder 33". For me, I worked on cutting out bad habits like sugary snacks first, and then implemented a calorie deficit later once I was taking in nutritious foods.

My advices - cutting out all sugars should be step #1. Worry about the deficit later. You won't believe how much better you feel once you kick that sugar habit to the curb where it belongs. Cutting the sugar habit will be hard. Which is why I advise you to keep the calories up while you do it. Cutting the sugar habit will improve your recovery ability since your body isn't inflamed all the time from ingesting sugar.

After that, yes you can run S&S on a significant deficit. However, you may have to get creative with cycling the weights if your experience is like mine. I'm currently running on a 25% deficit. I doubt I could hit simple again right now, but that's okay because the goal is to lean out.

Good luck with your training.

 

[Zack]

Dramatically impede progress? Probably not.

Do bear in mind that nutrition is part of the recovery pie (pun intended), so make it count when cutting calories with adequate protein, micronutrient, and water intake.

You could cycle your calories on training vs. rest days depending on how you feel about your performance.

 

[The Nail]

Do bear in mind that nutrition is part of the recovery pie (pun intended)

Now I want pie

 

[jhpowers]

My advices - cutting out all sugars should be step #1. Worry about the deficit later. You won't believe how much better you feel once you kick that sugar habit to the curb where it belongs. Cutting the sugar habit will be hard. Which is why I advise you to keep the calories up while you do it. Cutting the sugar habit will improve your recovery ability since your body isn't inflamed all the time from ingesting sugar.

I am totally with you on this. I am noticing more and more how awful I feel when I "fall off the wagon" and eat sugar.

You could cycle your calories on training vs. rest days depending on how you feel about your performance.

Do you know of any structured plan for doing this?

 

[Zack]

Do you know of any structured plan for doing this?

Not off the top of my head, but a place to start would be to eat at or slightly above maintenance calories on training days and adhere to your deficit on rest days.