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Kettlebell S&S, PM, PttP and Double FSQ?

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Kettlebelephant

Level 6 Valued Member
Hey!
Here's a thing I try to figure out for a couple of days so I thought to ask for some help :)

- 2 weeks S&S alternated with 2 weeks PttP (DL + Bent Press) or 2 weeks S&S alternated with 2 weeks original PM (Snatch + Bent Press)***
- 5 days per week (Mon-Fri)
- 1-3x 30-45min + 1x 60-90min LSD sessions per week (MAF-style, not too taxing, rucking or running depending on mood, whether etc.)
- LSD after waking up, S&S/PttP/PM late afternoon to evening

How to add double FSQs into that?

Things to consider:
- the FSQ must be progressive (just saying 3x5 isn't enough, because of the weight jumps with KBs you'll have to add reps or manipulate other things to make progress to heavier bells)
- easy enough to not interfere with the rest of the routine (everyone is different, but I think we can agree that e.g. ROP ladders for squats would be overkill)
- the FSQ part should only add max. 10-15min (maybe 20min) to the routine
- no change in schedule (not adding sessions on the weekend, not suggesting different programs, no change of exercises)

Thanks in advance!

+++Before someone mentions Easy Strength. I have no idea how to apply that to KBs. I know how I would apply it to a barbell, but the weight difference between KBs is too big IMO.
For example Day 1, 2, 4 & 5 in ES are all 2x5. I'd take the same weight for all 4 workouts, because going up a bell size wouldn't be easy anymore and going down would be so easy that I could leave that out. When doing the 5-3-2 you should take slightly more on the set of 3 and again a bit more for the 2. That's not possible with KBs. Same problem for the 6 singles where you should add weight for each rep.
I'd end up using the same two KBs for every workout no matter if it's 2x5, 5-3-2, 6 singles or 1x10 and still wouldn't be able to use the next bigger KB set for the next 2 week cycle.
Also you should alternate the move every 2 weeks. With KBs you only have the FSQ or the GS.
I'm open for suggestions, but ES is a barbell program in my eyes and loses it's effectiveness when used with KBs.+++

***for everyone wondering about why PttP or PM. I work out in my room (rented) and would have to make changes to my floor to be able to drop a bar onto it plus I still need to buy a barbell and weights. If I can afford the barbell and can make the changes to the room it's going to be PttP, otherwise PM.
 
I think it's possible to do KB FSQs 1-2 times a week for 3-5 x 3 x 5, getting a volume of 15-25 reps. A jump increase of 8 kilos is roughly 17 lbs, which represents about 5-10% of your weight with KBs added.

Meaning, if you build up to 5 x 5 (which would be roughly an 8RM, or ~80% 1RM), then you could then drop to 5 x 3 with the next bell on one side (which would be a 5 RM, or ~85% 1RM). Then build back up to 5 x 5. The numbers seem to mean that it could be doable. That's assuming you only have 8 kilo jumps. If you have 4 kilos jumps, then even better.

That's just the KB FSQ portion of:
Kettlebells and Deadlifts Go Together Like Vodka and Pickles

Sounds like a painless way of adding FSQs, and while KB jumps are too big for upper body moves (where you might have to dabble into ladders and higher volume), it looks doable for lower body because the weight represents a much smaller fraction of the entire weight being moved (your body).

Just an idea :)
 
With S&S every day:

Monday: FSQ, heavy weights, few reps and few sets (2*32kg, 5 sets of 3 reps)
Tuesday: Light run
Wednesday: FSQ, medium weights, few reps and few sets (2*28kg, 5 sets of 4 reps)
Thursday: Rucking
Friday: FSQ, light weights, volume day (2*24kg, 6 sets of 8 reps)

The weights are an example that depends on your proficiency and the weights available. Progression could be made weekly by alternatingly increasing reps by one, increasing the rep time (start with 2-1-3) by 1 second a way and decreasing the rest time by 30 seconds (start with 2 minutes). When you hit the minimum rest time and 5*5 with 2*32kg, increase weight in all lifts and start again. Decreasing the rest time isn't optimal for building strength but one has to make compromises when there aren't are a lot of possible factors.

I'm not sure I'd like to add front squats to the PTTP so I'll pass on commenting it further.
 
Let's move this in another direction.
Do you think goblet squats in the warmup, the lunge part of the TGU, the kind of half squat in the bent press (I have to get down almost to 90° for a BnP), rucking & running (especially running is more quad dominant) and the (compared to the swing and conventional DL) increased utilisation of the quads in the snatch and sumo DL are enough to balance the leg (keeping the right balance between posterior and anterior chain)?
 
@Kettlebelephant- To progress on the FSQ run the reps like the fighter pull up program. Maybe 6,5,4 on a Tuesday followed by 6,5,5 on Thursday. Depending on whatever rep range you want to work with. Once all three sets are done for say 10,10,10 jump to the next size and drop the reps.
 
Kettlebelephant said:
Let's move this in another direction.
Do you think goblet squats in the warmup, the lunge part of the TGU, the kind of half squat in the bent press (I have to get down almost to 90° for a BnP), rucking & running (especially running is more quad dominant) and the (compared to the swing and conventional DL) increased utilisation of the quads in the snatch and sumo DL are enough to balance the leg (keeping the right balance between posterior and anterior chain)?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't do the FSQ for the sake of balance in that situation.
 
Good suggestions already, I have used ladders with re-cleaning the weights between each rung but not putting the bells down in the past. e.g clean, 1 FSQ, clean 2 FSQ, clean 3 FSQ etc. Allowed me to get higher reps without shoulders giving out first.

But I wouldn't just do FSQ for quad balance, the movements you listed should be enough
 
Kettlebelephant said:
Before someone mentions Easy Strength.
Click to expand...
Easy strength.
Kettlebelephant said:
but ES is a barbell program in my eyes and loses it's effectiveness when used with KBs.
Click to expand...
never thought of it that way (and I think it is not intended that way anyway) ES in my opinion has guidelines such as
- around ten quality reps a day
- training frequently, almost daily having a day or two off occasionally
- up to five exercises, be it barbell, kettlebell, bodyweight, mixed together or one tool only
- varying sets, reps, intensity frequently
- rest enough for quality reps
- using specialized variety (for the KB front Squat maybe uneven load)
Kettlebelephant said:
For example Day 1, 2, 4 & 5 in ES are all 2x5. I'd take the same weight for all 4 workouts,
Click to expand...
is it so? and when yes, it is not written in stone
Kettlebelephant said:
When doing the 5-3-2 you should take slightly more on the set of 3 and again a bit more for the 2. That's not possible with KBs. Same problem for the 6 singles where you should add weight for each rep.
Click to expand...
think more could than should, going up on intensity, when feeling strong.

Easy strength is easy simple "programming", not complicated

Kettlebelephant said:
for everyone wondering about why PttP or PM. I work out in my room (rented) and would have to make changes to my floor to be able to drop a bar onto it plus I still need to buy a barbell and weights. If I can afford the barbell and can make the changes to the room it's going to be PttP, otherwise PM.
Click to expand...
when having a barbell (I am weird enough to have one in my rented living room)
- working slow eccentric which has its aspects on its own, so not a bad thing
- zercher squats without a power rack
 
@Harald Motz
The rep schemes I used as example were taken from Even Easier Strength.

I found this a couple of minutes ago The Forty Day Workout…Again
At the bottom is a routine from Pat Flynn based on Dan's Easy Strength principles.

It's Push-Pull-Hinge-Squat-Loaded Carry, 5 days/week, (1,2,3)x2 for every movement, used up to 3 months without changing the weight. The theory is after some time the 2 ladders will feel extremely easy without any change to reps, sets, weight or density and after they feel light you can bump up the weight.
To me this looks just like the often mentioned guy who comes into the gym, does his sets couple of sets of bench, curl and abs with the same weight and leaves...and never making progress.
But this was approved by Dan himself so I'm going to use the (1,2,3)x2 approach just for the FSQ as an experiment for the next 4-8 weeks (depending on the results) and see how it goes.

Harald Motz said:
when having a barbell (I am weird enough to have one in my rented living room)
- working slow eccentric which has its aspects on its own, so not a bad thing
- zercher squats without a power rack
Click to expand...
I still want some padding. Recently I had a moment of carelessness and forgot to grab the KB during H2H-Swings.
Believe me you don't want your 36Kg to crash from shoulderheight onto the wooden floor...
 
Kettlebelephant said:
Let's move this in another direction.
Do you think goblet squats in the warmup, the lunge part of the TGU, the kind of half squat in the bent press (I have to get down almost to 90° for a BnP), rucking & running (especially running is more quad dominant) and the (compared to the swing and conventional DL) increased utilisation of the quads in the snatch and sumo DL are enough to balance the leg (keeping the right balance between posterior and anterior chain)?
Click to expand...

I was thinking about this the other day. I came to the conclusion that quads are indirectly assisting in extending the hip during pulls, and are therefore working. This is how I see it:

During the pulls, the hamstrings are doing part of the hip extension. But the hamstrings are pulling from the tibia, and are therefore trying to flex the knee. But the knee is not flexing, it is extending. So the quads are taking the burden of extending the knee (which in itself is an effort), plus having to beat the force of the hamstrings trying to bend the knee (since the foot are planted, ankle extensors assist in extending the knee as well).

This is why I think that heavy pulls are well balanced between posterior and anterior chain. They will not develop huge quads, but they will keep the quads working to a healthy and balanced extent.
 
Oscar said:
This is why I think that heavy pulls are well balanced between posterior and anterior chain. They will not develop huge quads, but they will keep the quads working to a healthy and balanced extent.
Click to expand...
That's all I care for. Thx for your thoughts. I don't need extra hypertrophy in the quads. My quads respond very well when it comes to size and I already have a lot of problems finding fitting pants because of my thighs...

I'm still going for at least 4 weeks of FSQ to see if the routine from above works.
 
One benefit of the FSQ is the extra abdominal work, not only the quads. Stronger abs are always good. This may be because abs are a weak point for me, but posture is the limiting factor for me in FSQ, way before the legs are done.
 
@pet'
15, 12, 10, 8, 6, 5 sets... even with as little rest as 2min that would add significant amount of time to the workout. 20 would be my absolute maximum, but I'd prefer 10-15. So that would be too much added time in my book.
But still a good routine for other purposes. I have to look through the SF articles again. There are some real gems in there.
 
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