Kettlebell S&S with VWC?

[Crash371]

I am currently following S&S and have just reached the simple goal. I would like to continue this program until I reach the sinister goal, but would also like to work on my conditioning. I live in Colorado so over the summer I can easyily go for a run, but during the winter I need an alternative way to condition. Would doing the VWC work well with S&S? If so, how would you combine the 2 programs? Also should I begin to add in deadlifts, pull ups, or presses or strictly stick to S&S for strength? I apologize if a thread like this already exists, I searched the forum but couldn't find it.

 

[coachnathanwhite]

My question for you would be, "what is your goal?" If you are attempting to improve VO2 Max for running, then stick with S&S and add hill sprints twice a week. The whole point of S&S is to perform the absolute minimum amount of work (less volume, exercises) and still get tremendous results (increased intensity).

Adding more stuff usually doesn't yield better results, it just increases chance of more wear and tear. Check out Dan John and Pavel's "Easy Strength" for more on this training philosophy.

 

[Steve Freides]

I am currently following S&S and have just reached the simple goal.

Please post in the "I Achieved Simple" thread if you haven't already, and congratulations! And, if I haven't said so already, welcome to StrongFirst!

I would like to continue this program until I reach the sinister goal, but would also like to work on my conditioning.

If you're working S&S, you already _are_ working on your conditioning.

I live in Colorado so over the summer I can easyily go for a run, but during the winter I need an alternative way to condition. Would doing the VWC work well with S&S? If so, how would you combine the 2 programs?

I don't think so. Please read some of the blog here about training and competing with different energy systems - I could paraphrase or summarize but it's better if you get it from the source - if anyone would care to provide some links to past StrongFirst blogs, please do, and thanks in advance for that. To put it very briefly, my understanding is the VWC will subject to training stresses the very energy systems S&S seeks to avoid using except during competition. The details, as I said above, are best learned from some of the blogs on our site here.

Also should I begin to add in deadlifts, pull ups, or presses or strictly stick to S&S for strength? I apologize if a thread like this already exists, I searched the forum but couldn't find it.

S&S is a generalist program; if you wish to get better at specific lifts, please find and follow a program designed to advance you toward those specific goals, and please read/reread S&S about how to keep doing it, but less, when following another program.

-S-

 

[offwidth]

+1 to what Steve said.

Also...

I live in Colorado so over the summer I can easyily go for a run, but during the winter I need an alternative way to condition.

I have lived in cold and snowy places most of my life. You need to be safe about it, but Colorado winters shouldn't stop you from running. (If running is part of your plan)

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

I have lived in cold and snowy places most of my life. You need to be safe about it, but Colorado winters shouldn't stop you from running. (If running is part of your plan)

If it gets a bit deep, bust out the snowshoes and "run" on those. Great fun and a#@ kicking conditioning!

 

[BrianCF]

Do not do VWC, unless you want tennis elbow for the next 4 months.

I've used kettlebells for over 7 years, made the mistake of trying it about 18 months ago, and got tennis elbow within 2 days.

You want a good snatch conditioning workout. Take a 24 and do sets of 5 each side and rest at the top of the minute for 20 minutes.

 

[Steve W.]

VWC and S&S swings overlap a lot in their goals, even if they use different means.

I've done the VWC 15:15 protocol (there are several different protocols in the book) up to 16kg x 8 x 80 sets, and 24kg x 7 x 60 sets, and had no problems as far as injuries, hand tears, etc. I did find it mentally taxing, as you have to maintain a very high cadence with short rest intervals.

This summer, I did a lot of A+A style training with snatches and double cleans, working up to 60 sets of 5 with 28kg (single for snatches and doubles for cleans), doing a set every 70 seconds for snatches and every 80 seconds for double cleans. I found this style of "lazy" endurance much more pleasant and sustainable.

I would assess what kind of "conditioning" you are trying to achieve (what energy systems, what activity, speed/intensity, what duration, etc.), do some research and/or follow up here, and plan accordingly.

 

[MikeTheBear]

Having read both VWC and Kenneth Jay's Cardio Code, I can say that the VWC is designed specifically to increase VO2max, aka, aerobic capacity. Just doings swings will build general conditioning, which can have a positive effect on aerobic capacity, but not to the same extent as something designed to build the aerobic energy system. If you are a runner than you need to focus on improving the aerobic energy system, and VWC will do a better job than the swing portion of S&S. As someone noted, VWC can be a bit tough on the elbows and shoulders.

If you do VWC then do what KJ recommends - add some basic strength work on non-snatch days. This can simply be the get up. On weekends, invest in some snowshoes and head for the hiking trails. During the week when you have less time you could do some hill repeats in snowshoes. This is assuming that you cannot otherwise run because of snow. Obviously if the pavement is dry you can run. Don't do VWC and snowshoeing on the same day. The snowshoe idea is just so you can get some sport-specific training and give your elbows a rest from the snatches.

BTW - I also live in Colorado so I get where you're coming from.

 

[Crash371]

Thank you all for this advice! I appreciate all of it!

 

[Steve Freides]

If you are a runner than you need to focus on improving the aerobic energy system, and VWC will do a better job than the swing portion of S&S.

I am not convinced of this.

Long Rests: Russian Science to the Rescue

-S-

 

[ClaudeR]

I'm also not convinced about increasing VO2Max as an endurance athlete... It used to be the single measure people looked at, but has increasingly become less important, as it is very specific, very hard to improve (there is a lot of genetics going on here), and will not necessarily improve race results. As always, it is but one variable in a long list of variables.
Just like power numbers on the bike mean nothing without context, VO2Max means nothing without context.
The standard test for it is also very much not applicable to real world performance. As a part of the standard test protocol you don't know either required effort nor duration, which makes it impossible to pace, and proper pacing is extremely important for endurance athletes.

A better measure might be your vVO2Max, which is your velocity at VO2Max effort and includes economy/efficiency as well as pure VO2Max (basically to improve race times you can improve either one or both)

As a runner, there are a lot of other factors that you would be better off improving (and this becomes more valid the longer your distance is), chiefly among which is efficiency (that holds true for all endurance sports), and endurance at subthreshold paces (aerobic training a la Maffetone).
VO2Max being very hard to improve (assuming you have reached a certain level of fitness and maturity as an athlete, beginners can improve anything easily) it is a lot more injury prone to do so, and running is very injury prone already.

Nothing wrong with running a few weeks of specific VO2Max training once or twice a year, but on the long term you will always be better off to improve submaximal endurance and efficiency (which basically gives you speed for free).
The swings portion in S&S being largely a form of A+A training is a lot more applicable to real world endurance than pure VO2Max training, in my experience at least, and it seems to be confirmed by results that people get

 

[offwidth]

In some circles it's even referred to the VO2 Max Myth.
From my limited understanding of the subject... difficult if not near impossible to train in all but highly untrained individuals. Anaerobic Threshold or the fractional utilization of VO2 Max is however very trainable.

 

[ClaudeR]

In some circles it's even referred to the VO2 Max Myth.
From my limited understanding of the subject... difficult if not near impossible to train in all but highly untrained individuals. Anaerobic Threshold or the fractional utilization of VO2 Max is however very trainable.

That is exactly what I meant, your VO2MAX is pretty much what it is after initial adaptation unless you want to really take a very high injury risk, but you can train your speed/endurance/economy at that level rather well (which is what vVo2Max expresses, your velocity at VO2MAX, which is highly trainable)

BTW, training at or above your threshold levels is only ever applicable to very short bursts (think sprinters), the longer you go the less you will even get close to your threshold, which is why S&S (or any other A+A system) combined with LSD work works so well in training endurance athletes

 

[Steve Freides]

@aciampa, your input is invited here if you have a moment.

-S-

 

[ClaudeR]

Steve, I got most of that understanding from chatting to Al, so yes, his input will certainly be a lot more on point than my ramblings

 

[Al Ciampa]

In the same way that your 1RM bench press says little about what you can do in the 225lb test, and far less about what you can squat; VO2max is not a good predictor for what you can submaximally maintain for duration; and its applicable only to the activity tested.

 

[MikeTheBear]

So I guess the question is whether VWC goes into the glycolitic zone. Given the short rest periods, probably yes. In that case, doing something like in the article Steve posted is probably the better way to go.

 

[Miguel]

So I guess the question is whether VWC goes into the glycolitic zone. Given the short rest periods, probably yes. In that case, doing something like in the article Steve posted is probably the better way to go.

Or an A+A protocol... =]