Other/Mixed Second Wind/Buteyko/OA v. Co2 Apnea Tables

[Pasibrzuch]

Hello,
Oxygen Advantage, the Buteyko Method and, to the best of my knowledge, Second Wind aim to increase one's tolerance to CO2. The common denominator of these methods is using a breath hold after exhale.
Another method, especially popular among free divers, also mentioned in this article is using Apnea Tables. One type of an apnea table is also aimed directly at increasing CO2 tolerance. However, the air is hold on an inhale.

That's a little bit confusing for me. I guess there is probably a crucial difference when it comes to physiological effects of exhaled- v. inhaled breathhold. Is there anyone here who has any idea what the difference is?able to explain it? Or can anyone point me to particular resources?

 

[Maldus]

I use an apnea training app, tried both ways.
After inhaling, feels unpleasant for me, you get excited. After exhale, it is relaxing, peaceful. I don't know if you progress more or less on each one, but after exhaling is slowly working for me.
Hope it helps!

 

[Bauer]

I use an apnea training app, tried both ways.
After inhaling, feels unpleasant for me, you get excited. After exhale, it is relaxing, peaceful. I don't know if you progress more or less on each one, but after exhaling is slowly working for me.
Hope it helps!

So, do you finda that the calculated tables work with holds after exhales, too? Somehow I assumed that the calculations would be off then.

 

[Maldus]

I calculate my apnea duration on exhale (there is a test in the app and tables are generated according to your results), but I use to adjust it manually. The way you breath in between apneas make a difference too, there is some learning there.
For me is the easiest way to train as I need some kind of program or design

 

[Pasibrzuch]

For me is the easiest way to train as I need some kind of program or design

I also did some exhale apnea training using the tables, for the very same reason of having a structure.
However, the fastest way I make progress with my control pause is via ujjayi breathing in between a+a/q&d training sessions.

 

[acutaiar12]

I’ve been using apnea tables for over 4 years now. I’ve always done the breath hold after the inhale. I feel amazing doing it in this way. I do it laying in bed, sitting in a chair, or even walking lately.

I also do both O2 and and CO2 apnea training.

I don’t know enough about second wind to comment in it, but I say do whatever makes you feel good.

I’ve gotten my breath hold time on the inhale to 4:30 minutes. I tried my max after training after the exhale and it’s just over 3 minutes.

 

[Xene]

I also did some exhale apnea training using the tables, for the very same reason of having a structure.
However, the fastest way I make progress with my control pause is via ujjayi breathing in between a+a/q&d training sessions.

Can you elaborate how you do this?

 

[Bauer]

Can you elaborate how you do this?

AFAIK, ujjayi breathing is the basis for the Darth Vader breathing technique (from Second Wind and SF-KB BJJ Fanatics). But maybe there is more to it, @Pasibrzuch ?

 

[Pasibrzuch]

Can you elaborate how you do this?

the main trick is to develop proprioception in your throat so you are able to breathe through a constricted glottis. It's all done via nasal breathing. You can find tutorials on youtube. That generates the "Darth Vader" sound mentioned by @Bauer . I also make small pause after both the inhale and exhale. Exhales are emphasized. When I observe my HR, it goes down much faster than when I breathe normally. I think it falls under the principle "move less air to recover faster".

 

[Xene]

the main trick is to develop proprioception in your throat so you are able to breathe through a constricted glottis. It's all done via nasal breathing. You can find tutorials on youtube. That generates the "Darth Vader" sound mentioned by @Bauer . I also make small pause after both the inhale and exhale. Exhales are emphasized. When I observe my HR, it goes down much faster than when I breathe normally. I think it falls under the principle "move less air to recover faster".

sounds cool! going to try it!

 

[Anders]

What are some of the benefits you have experienced after doing this types of breathing exercises ?

 

[Pasibrzuch]

What are some of the benefits you have experienced after doing this types of breathing exercises ?

Mainly benefits that come from Buteyko method/Oxygen advantage. In the realm of exercise the HR is lower and breath is calmer while the load stays the same. In other words - the moment when you start gasping for air is delayed. In every day life it's reduced anxiety and slightly better focus. The only drawback is that I find it mentally draining to do it under the duress of exercise.
Still, when I stop doing it my control pause decreases to dramatically low levels (~10s).

@Xene , let us know if it worked for you as well

 

[Bauer]

What are some of the benefits you have experienced after doing this types of breathing exercises ?

The Darth Vader breathing helps to recover faster inbetween sets. This is great for on-the-minute sessions. Otherwise, when you have all the time you want and go talk-test based it will probably not matter as much.

The apnea tables stuff (hypoxic training) is supposed to increase your general resistance to external stressors, among other benefits.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

The apnea tables stuff (hypoxic training) is supposed to increase your general resistance to external stressors, among other benefits.

Could you elaborate on this one? What is meant by external stressors? I understand it as reduced anxiety as well. I'm thinking about giving inhaled apnea tables a shot.

 

[Bauer]

Could you elaborate on this one? What is meant by external stressors? I understand it as reduced anxiety as well. I'm thinking about giving inhaled apnea tables a shot.

Ah, should have dropped the "external'. General resistance to stressors, both psychological (stress, pressure, etc.) and physical (heat, cold, some illnesses).

Apparently, a lot of physical stressors involve hypoxia on a cellular level - and training resistance against hypoxia might thus help against all kinds of physical stressors, not just breath/oxygen related ones.

 

[acutaiar12]

I will say that in the 4 years that I’ve done Apnea Training, I haven’t been sick once.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

Ah, should have dropped the "external'. General resistance to stressors, both psychological (stress, pressure, etc.) and physical (heat, cold, some illnesses).

Apparently, a lot of physical stressors involve hypoxia on a cellular level - and training resistance against hypoxia might thus help against all kinds of physical stressors, not just breath/oxygen related ones.

very interesting! I will make sure: you are talking exclusively about Second Wind (afaik exhaled breathholds only) or "traditional" apnea tables (inhaled breathhold) as well?

 

[Bauer]

very interesting! I will make sure: you are talking exclusively about Second Wind (afaik exhaled breathholds only) or "traditional" apnea tables (inhaled breathhold) as well?

I am referencing (from memory) Second Wind, which uses hypoxic holds after exhalation. However, most of the research on "intermittend hypoxia training" has been done with special hypoxia masks/machines (easier to control for scientific purposes), so the stimulus might be somewhat different. And as far as I understand, Russian researchers also tested the efffects of training holds after exhalation.

Pavel also mentions that you can use Apnea tables, if you want more structure. I can't recall what he has to say on the different effects -- but I started with his guidelines for hypoxic holds. I think practicing after inhalation is more sports specific for divers.

Btw, apparently, hypoxic training can also enhance physical training (exercises). And it is a bit like altitude training, without the adverse effects of continuous lack of oxygen. But that is of course dose dependent.

 

[Antti]

The Darth Vader breathing helps to recover faster inbetween sets. This is great for on-the-minute sessions. Otherwise, when you have all the time you want and go talk-test based it will probably not matter as much.

The apnea tables stuff (hypoxic training) is supposed to increase your general resistance to external stressors, among other benefits.

Curious, when you say you "recover faster Inbetween sets", how do you measure recovery?

 

[Bauer]

Curious, when you say you "recover faster Inbetween sets", how do you measure recovery?

Personally: Feeling calm and ready for the next set.
In the study that Pavel references the Ujjayi breathing helped to slow down HR and to normalize oxygen saturation much faster than with normal breathing or tai chi breathing. (Subjects were performing 10 minutes of grappling before the testing).