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Old Forum Shoulder elevation on heavy double cleans

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tony1214

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I have noticed I have a very mild shoulder elevation on heavy cleans 32kg and above. at the very top point for a split second then my lats come on the bell rotates around my hand and lands in the rack and on a packed shoulder. It looks like in RTK the Kenneth jay has the same thing. I noticed that when I do the inverse V as tough by Geoff nepurts it dose not happen as much, still a little. I must say in both cases the elevation is very minor. The thing is I don't fell nearly as strong on the inverse V, and it feels like I am more tendency to pull with my arms and back. Any feedback or help would be appreciated. Even though I don't feel as strong on the inverse V I do feel my hips and upper back load more like Geoff says in KB strong.
 
Tony, once the weight gets to a certain point, you don't have a choice in this so don't worry about it.  If it concerns you, keep your kettlebells cleans to lower weights and work on maximum explosiveness and higher volume, then just try singles with heavier weights and see if you can avoid the shrug.

Or just do lighter kettlebell cleans and do heavier with a barbell.

-S-
 
thank you for the great feedback!! That was what I was thinking, I know some O-lifting coaches don't believe in teaching the shrug because if you drive hard enough with your hips if will happen as reflex. So I figured that was what was happening hear, thank you again!!!
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-1H_7BZ03Y

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEvb63AGMms

 

form check vids, any feedback would be much appreciated!!!
 
Tony,

Steve's correct - at some point the weight is heavy and you need to shrug a bit, but ... try pulling your elbows back and down at the point of your hip snap.  Practice with lighter weights first.
 
I have been practicing double cleans.  I notice that when I do a quick little shrug the bells float vertically and come to rest gently in the rack position with my shoulders down and packed.  The movement seems natural enough.  Is there any harm in this?
 
Steve,

To be honest with you, I saw that.  The reason I asked my question is because it still wasn't clear to me.  When you said "if it concerns you ...", I didn't really know how to take that.  Do you mean if I am not that concerned about it then it is alright?
 
Jeffrey,

There is nothing "wrong" with shrugging the shoulders in a KB clean.  Just get them back down before the bells rack.

I think that this discussion is complicated by a similar debate in Oly lifting - power clean ... yes, shrug with the triple extension; squat clean ... no, shrug after the triple extension.

The KB clean will always be a "power clean", so, as the weights get heavy, you're going to shrug.
 
I teach the kettlebell clean without a shoulder shrug, and that the shoulder shrug is undesirable.  Try not to do it.   The hips supply the force.  Steer by moving your forearm at the elbow joint but keeping your upper arm against your body.  Imagine your forearms are attached directly to your rib cage.  Move from the elbow but keep the elbow against your ribs, don't move it forwards or backwards, and don't use your shoulder.

Some people manage not to shrug their shoulder but pull the elbow backwards to pull the bell in.  While I don't think this violates our Level I standards,  I always point it out and I always discourage it.

Once the weight gets heavier, things may change, but first master this skill as described above.

You should be able to clean a single kettlebell of moderate weight this way, and most people can learn to clean a pair of moderately sized kettlebells or a single heavier one this way.   The upper arms and shoulder often enter the picture with heavy double cleans.

If that doesn't clear up any confusion, please let me know.

-S-
 
High pulls are used as a progression to snatches.  When doing both high pulls and snatches, the elbow is pulled back in order to tame the arc.  It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to pull the elbows back in a similar manner in the clean.  What are your thoughts about that?
 
There is nothing wrong with pulling the elbow back in general.  A high pull must include pulling the elbow back, and pulling the elbow back is a good way to take the arc in the kettlebell snatch.

The elbow must move at least a little during a kettlebell clean.  Usually the elbow will be more towards the front at the backmost portion of the swing, and then is further back in the rack position.  But that doesn't change my approach to the clean - like a swing, it should have no arm.  My visualization is: upper arm pinned to side of ribs.  You can clean a kettlebell while holding a piece of paper under your arm.

Pulling the elbow back further than it will be in the rack position then making an upper cut-like motion to finish is a valid approach as long as pulling the elbow back is used in taming the arc and not providing a curl-like pull up on the kettlebell.

If you're unsure of whether your elbow motion in the kettlebell clean is OK, post a video and I and others can comment on it.

-S-
 
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