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Kettlebell Simple and sinister + greasing the groove questions

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Anth

Level 4 Valued Member
Hello!
I'm currently working on S&S, working mainly with the 24, (but I did my first TGU with the 32 today, and it felt quite easy).

I've been supplementing it by greasing the groove with push ups and pull ups, which has been working well. I saw Bobby Maximus and his "Holy Trinity" of push ups, pull ups, and dips. It got me thinking about adding dips to my GTG protocol. I know that it's typically recommended to do only two exercises, but I've been doing it for a week or so and I am still noticing improvement in all three exercises, without feeling much fatigue.
In addition, I feel like I've plateaued on regular push ups. Currently I have my kids climb on my upper back while I bang out 6-8 push ups. They're about 50 lbs, and they know how to sit comfortably on my upper back and shoulders, not my lower back. These push ups feel great and my kids love them. Currently I can only do 3 dips, but they feel much stronger and stable than they did the first time.

So here are my questions:
1. Is it too much, or has anyone ever had success with doing those three exercises in addition to S&S?
2. Am I missing something if I am not doing dips, or would doing push ups with my kids on my back be sufficient?

My overall goal is to build general strength for varied activities. I'm 39 years old, just over 100kgs, 6'2'', junior college soccer player, life-long martial artist, and (obviously) a dad. I want to be healthy and strong enough to spar, teach my kids sports, partake in an occasional 5k, and have a better than average dad bod.

Sorry for the long post, just looking for advice on adding dips.

Thanks in advance!
 
Anth said:
Hello!
I'm currently working on S&S, working mainly with the 24, (but I did my first TGU with the 32 today, and it felt quite easy).

I've been supplementing it by greasing the groove with push ups and pull ups, which has been working well. I saw Bobby Maximus and his "Holy Trinity" of push ups, pull ups, and dips. It got me thinking about adding dips to my GTG protocol. I know that it's typically recommended to do only two exercises, but I've been doing it for a week or so and I am still noticing improvement in all three exercises, without feeling much fatigue.
In addition, I feel like I've plateaued on regular push ups. Currently I have my kids climb on my upper back while I bang out 6-8 push ups. They're about 50 lbs, and they know how to sit comfortably on my upper back and shoulders, not my lower back. These push ups feel great and my kids love them. Currently I can only do 3 dips, but they feel much stronger and stable than they did the first time.

So here are my questions:
1. Is it too much, or has anyone ever had success with doing those three exercises in addition to S&S?
2. Am I missing something if I am not doing dips, or would doing push ups with my kids on my back be sufficient?

My overall goal is to build general strength for varied activities. I'm 39 years old, just over 100kgs, 6'2'', junior college soccer player, life-long martial artist, and (obviously) a dad. I want to be healthy and strong enough to spar, teach my kids sports, partake in an occasional 5k, and have a better than average dad bod.

Sorry for the long post, just looking for advice on adding dips.

Thanks in advance!
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There are people more qualified than me to answer all this, but:

Strong First has chosen the one arm pushup as the golden standard for pushups (with the one arm one legged variety the "Tsar" of pushups, hahaha!) These will make you very strong all through your body as they activate the anti-twist muscles kind of like what happens in S&S. I don't do many normal pushups because they just don't do a lot compared with one arm pushups.

Dips are nice moves, and I admit I do them (and I think I hurt my shoulder doing them!) but they are not as beneficial as one arm pushups, and you can probably figure out why (no anti-twist, not as heavy a move as one arm pushups etc). They are good moves though if done safely and correctly of course. The advice you might get here is to focus on the one arm pushups instead.

Pullups are definitely on the menu at Strong First! I have always loved them too. They are just superb and help with all our other moves like swings etc.

Hanging leg raises are also a very good idea. I'd like to find out exactly how they are taught here but my assumption is that they are the legs all the way up to the bar kind.

The pistol squat is also a fundamental part of Strong First bodyweight training.

So, these four bodyweight moves are the ones:

  1. one arm pushups GTG
  2. pistols GTG
  3. pullups (not GTG - 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps) alternating with:
  4. hanging leg raises (3-5 set of 3-5 reps)

...providing there is back chain development going on with S&S swings or deadlifts.
 
As for your questions:

1. Is it too much, or has anyone ever had success with doing those three exercises in addition to S&S?

YES, I have done these in addition to S&S and had success, of course!

2. Am I missing something if I am not doing dips, or would doing push ups with my kids on my back be sufficient?

The one arm pushups are better than dips. I'll even add that after a diet of one arm pushups for a while, dips got super easy, almost too easy! Think about it: one arm pushups place 70% of your weight on one arm. Dips only place 50% of your weight on one arm. Also, one arm pushups train the anti-twist muscles but dips do not. A lot of the "hanging" benefit of dips, actually the same benefits are gotten through pullups. You're kind of doing a lot of the same thing twice by doing dips and pullups, as I understand it. This is not at all to say that dips are bad.

Pushups with kids on the back? One arm pushups are better, as I understand things.
 
Kozushi said:
As for your questions:

1. Is it too much, or has anyone ever had success with doing those three exercises in addition to S&S?

YES, I have done these in addition to S&S and had success, of course!

2. Am I missing something if I am not doing dips, or would doing push ups with my kids on my back be sufficient?

The one arm pushups are better than dips. I'll even add that after a diet of one arm pushups for a while, dips got super easy, almost too easy! Think about it: one arm pushups place 70% of your weight on one arm. Dips only place 50% of your weight on one arm. Also, one arm pushups train the anti-twist muscles but dips do not. A lot of the "hanging" benefit of dips, actually the same benefits are gotten through pullups. You're kind of doing a lot of the same thing twice by doing dips and pullups, as I understand it. This is not at all to say that dips are bad.

Pushups with kids on the back? One arm pushups are better, as I understand things.
Click to expand...

Thanks!
I've really been thinking about the one-arm push up, but I'm having trouble finding a good progression program. Do you have any suggestions?
 
Dips and shoulders can be problematic for some folks.

John Rusin has some good data on the dangers.

FWIW
 
Maybe strict GTG won't work for you with 3 exercises, but a lot of people add stuff to S and S because they want to.

You are kind of taking away from S and S at some point, though, if you are trying to do pushups, dips, and pull ups every day as well.
 
You need to re-examine your goals. If these supplemental exercises are part of your goals, and you aren't concerned with hitting any S&S goals within a specific timeline, I'd say go for it. You will probably be able to somewhat get away with it until you start working S&S with bigger bells.

If you have a hard goal of hitting the simple goal within a specific timeline, I'd probably advise you to shelve those until you hit your simple goal. You might be able to do some of them lightly in an occasional variety day or a warm up if you can do them in a non-strenuous manner, but realize you could be taking away energy & recovery from your S&S. You may also risk injury, which will put you out of the game as well. I know everyone is suddenly all intrigued by doing push ups since the release of Q&D, and it seems like a safe mundane exercise, but I once injured my shoulder doing push ups. (having no access to equipment on a business trip) Dips are high risk to a lot of people's shoulders. If you do them, I'd suggest not going to full range of motion. Whatever you decide, good luck!
 
Papa Georgio said:
You need to re-examine your goals. If these supplemental exercises are part of your goals, and you aren't concerned with hitting any S&S goals within a specific timeline, I'd say go for it. You will probably be able to somewhat get away with it until you start working S&S with bigger bells.

If you have a hard goal of hitting the simple goal within a specific timeline, I'd probably advise you to shelve those until you hit your simple goal. You might be able to do some of them lightly in an occasional variety day or a warm up if you can do them in a non-strenuous manner, but realize you could be taking away energy & recovery from your S&S. You may also risk injury, which will put you out of the game as well. I know everyone is suddenly all intrigued by doing push ups since the release of Q&D, and it seems like a safe mundane exercise, but I once injured my shoulder doing push ups. (having no access to equipment on a business trip) Dips are high risk to a lot of people's shoulders. If you do them, I'd suggest not going to full range of motion. Whatever you decide, good luck!
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I injured myself with dips, and now I can't do S&S because of it for a while.
 
Anth said:
Thanks!
I've really been thinking about the one-arm push up, but I'm having trouble finding a good progression program. Do you have any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Start by holding the top position, then try holding it with your arm a bit bent the next time etc. Eventually you'll be able to get quite low and it'll happen.

I think one arm pushups are worthy of maintaining alongside S&S.
 
Papa Georgio said:
You need to re-examine your goals. If these supplemental exercises are part of your goals, and you aren't concerned with hitting any S&S goals within a specific timeline, I'd say go for it. You will probably be able to somewhat get away with it until you start working S&S with bigger bells.

If you have a hard goal of hitting the simple goal within a specific timeline, I'd probably advise you to shelve those until you hit your simple goal. You might be able to do some of them lightly in an occasional variety day or a warm up if you can do them in a non-strenuous manner, but realize you could be taking away energy & recovery from your S&S. You may also risk injury, which will put you out of the game as well. I know everyone is suddenly all intrigued by doing push ups since the release of Q&D, and it seems like a safe mundane exercise, but I once injured my shoulder doing push ups. (having no access to equipment on a business trip) Dips are high risk to a lot of people's shoulders. If you do them, I'd suggest not going to full range of motion. Whatever you decide, good luck!
Click to expand...

Excellent point. I don't have a hard timeline. I'm just going with the flow on achieving simple. I'm really trying to get stronger overall, and I feel like push ups and pull ups are a major part of that. That being said, I'm probably going to drop dips and work on the one-hand push up for a while. I did some practice yesterday and it felt great. When I get to a point where I feel very strong, I'll probably try dips then.
 
@Anth- If you want to work in a few movements have at it. You're still doing S&S as the program was written as a bare minimum general conditioning program.Can it be done as a stand along program, you bet. However, you can add in GTG movements if you want with more than likely no ill affects. Theres TSC programs with swing and get ups and snatches as well as the fighter pull up program, deadlifts, floor presses and squats and that doesn'tseem to be too much volume.
 
ShawnM said:
@Anth- If you want to work in a few movements have at it. You're still doing S&S as the program was written as a bare minimum general conditioning program.Can it be done as a stand along program, you bet. However, you can add in GTG movements if you want with more than likely no ill affects. Theres TSC programs with swing and get ups and snatches as well as the fighter pull up program, deadlifts, floor presses and squats and that doesn'tseem to be too much volume.
Click to expand...
I agree. We can add in a few other moves we like.
 
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