Kettlebell Simple and Sinister : Intermediate to Advanced

[Adam R Mundorf]

Hello Everyone,

For those of you who consider yourself intermediate to advanced : What made you decide to pursue Simple and Sinister? Was it the simplicity of it? Was your training too varied? etc.

Thank you, Adam

 

[mikhael]

I'm not consider myself as an intermediate or even advance, rather as a beginner, a student, a seeker, a practitioner of Strength. Nonetheless I follow Simple & Sinister for a while because it's one of the best Strength plan ever created.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Labels aside, I've found it lays the foundation for the other skills...

Personally, what I like is working up to the sinister weights is a challenge which is definitely rare air for the lighter gentlemen and ladies

 

[Anna C]

Hello Everyone,

For those of you who consider yourself intermediate to advanced : What made you decide to pursue Simple and Sinister? Was it the simplicity of it? Was your training too varied? etc.

Thank you, Adam

When I did it in 2014, S&S was the first self-directed strength training program I had ever done.

I had strength trained (sort of), but there was really no progression. Light weight and lots of reps for a video routine, maybe using an 8 lb dumbell instead of 5 lb. Or Nautilus machines, move the plate pin down a notch every so often and wonder what exactly that was gaining me. And I had done self-directed progressive endurance training programs (running, cycling), but not strength.

S&S taught me the process of getting progressively stronger and more capable, while training on my own.

 

[barrak]

It depends on intermediate to advanced in what? An "advanced" bodybuilder who's as stiff as a board? A yoga master who's as strong as a noodle? Someone who already achieved Simple? An established athlete in their specific sport?

I'm keenly interested in answers to the OP's question, if they are put in proper contexts. Maybe some shared trainee stories by SFG instructors? I find such anecdotes shared in Pavel's books, for example, quite inspiring.

 

[Adam R Mundorf]

Thank you all for the responses.

@Anna C Do you train others or is this mainly a hobby for you?

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C Do you train others or is this mainly a hobby for you?

Side gig/hobby... I do IT (information tech) for my regular work. For a couple of years I was a personal trainer for hire at my local Air Force Base, but gave that up in 2019. Since then just a few one-one-one sessions or remote coaching arrangements.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

It depends on intermediate to advanced in what? An "advanced" bodybuilder who's as stiff as a board? A yoga master who's as strong as a noodle? Someone who already achieved Simple? An established athlete in their specific sport?

I'm keenly interested in answers to the OP's question, if they are put in proper contexts. Maybe some shared trainee stories by SFG instructors? I find such anecdotes shared in Pavel's books, for example, quite inspiring.

Funny story from a trainee..

He's an avid bike enthusiast and participated in OCR races pre covid.

His first hook was he was joining my beginner classes as a different means to prep for his spartan race.

The result is he finished with roughly the same time and less effort. Recent story is during his last group bike ride, he ended up becoming the spearhead with his newfound levels of endurance..

Here's my favorite anecdote though: his physical condition helped him beat covid 19 and also bounce back stronger when he lost a family member.. These two events happening in a span of less than 2 months

 

[watchnerd]

Hello Everyone,

For those of you who consider yourself intermediate to advanced : What made you decide to pursue Simple and Sinister? Was it the simplicity of it? Was your training too varied? etc.

Thank you, Adam

A) Weather. I needed something I could do indoors during winter, instead of the cold garage gym.

B) Transferability to my sport.

C) Once I got enough skill practice to do timed 24 kg KB, I stopped going strictly by the book as I didn't need to use KBs for basic strength building due to past barbell ballistic hinge and overhead work. I skipped a lot of intermediate steps on my way to Timed Simple.

 

[barrak]

A) Weather. I needed something I could do indoors during winter, instead of the cold garage gym.

B) Transferability to my sport.

C) Once I got enough skill practice to do timed 24 kg KB, I stopped going strictly by the book as I didn't need to use KBs for basic strength building due to past barbell ballistic hinge and overhead work. I skipped a lot of intermediate steps on my way to Timed Simple.

I can see how barbell work would accelerate swing progression. Did it have a similar effect on TGU progression as well?

 

[watchnerd]

I can see how barbell work would accelerate swing progression. Did it have a similar effect on TGU progression as well?

Objectively, I don't actually know.

I don't have a clone of myself who never did barbell training as my control group.

But by crude measures, the systemic loading of a TGU is far far less that what I get with big barbell lifts (squats, OHP, DL, clean pull, jerks, etc.).

The main thing it does for me is hit unusual planes of movement and movement sequences -- like any good accessory lift, it fills in some blank spaces amongst the stabilizers.

I think it might help a bit on stabilizing near-miss split jerks.

But does it pack meat on my bones or induce an anabolic state as efficiently as a BB squat, DL, or OHP?

Nah.

Time periods where I've done a lot of TGUs has never been a time where I've packed on as much muscle as using a barbell, or even blocks with double KB.

At least not according to the Dexa scans.

 

[watchnerd]

Did it have a similar effect on TGU progression as well?

Here is what I do know:

Once I got to 24 kg TGU and had learned the moves well enough to not be sloppy, doing them slowly, I bumped up 4 kg every 5 weeks. So I went from 24-> 28 in 5 weeks, then 28->32 in 5 weeks.

I don't know if a "different me" who hadn't ever trained with barbells would have progressed the same or not.

 

[barrak]

Here is what I do know:

Once I got to 24 kg TGU and had learned the moves well enough to not be sloppy, doing them slowly, I bumped up 4 kg every 5 weeks. So I went from 24-> 28 in 5 weeks, then 28->32 in 5 weeks.

I don't know if a "different me" who hadn't ever trained with barbells would have progressed the same or not.

That's twice the pace suggested in S&S 2.0. I'd say it helped.

 

[watchnerd]

That's twice the pace suggested in S&S 2.0. I'd say it helped.

Or maybe it's just the bell size relative to my body weight makes it easier for me, regardless of training history.

32 kg TGU is 31% of my bodyweight (~102 kg).

That math works out quite differently for a 75 kg bodyweight guy.

 

[Phil S]

Does a pandemic count as a reason?

I'm probably an intermediate and closing on Simple. Longish training age. First kettlebell (16) obtained from RKC era 2006ish. Lots of diversification into sport, crossfit, Starting Strength, Oly lifting and then climbing. Here was my path

Good barbell background and generally been using that tool at the gym to maintain acceptable strength standards...but no access to a barbell for the standard covid reasons. Usually each January i run a 4-12 week basic barbell cycle (front, back squats, mil or bench press, deadlift 1x a week and power cleans and weighted pull ups if needed - skipped this exercise during climbing years)

That usual pattern was off the table in January 2021. I'd been out of touch with the kettlebell community in general for years - and only peripherally aware of StrongFirst through a great climbing coach and author Steve Bechtel. I have at home my old 16kg, a 24kg nearly as old and a 32kg I'd been gifted and used for power movements in cycles for climbing support - mostly dead stop swings and unilateral cleans. No other weights - and I'd spent most of March-Dec 2020 pushing forward on other aspects of health and fitness.

While very familiar with older works like NW, RKC book and ETK I wasn't up to date with S&S - but the internet quickly pointed me to the program. I know good GPP when i see it and the minimalism appealed to me - as I'm at what I'm told is the "peak children" stage of life. The specificity of the goal appeals to me as well. I strongly favor measured goals - they've worked in the past. I also generally neglect supplemental conditioning, relying on a longterm aerobic base, but realize that won't last forever and will need attention as middle age creeps on. So i chose S&S as something different - while still being familiar.

And it's been a right proper challenge! The TGU are fairly easy for me - I've done up to 100lb before with dumbbells - but it's perfect practice that makes perfect. And through the wet winter the stakes are higher - forced inside (KB training is great outdoors) and on my own floor not a gym. No misses!

1 arm swings really challenged me when i moved past the 24kg weight (started easy with 16kg - not getting hurt or sore is priority). A hernia repair had left my left obliques atrophied and weak - and while I'd been building them back over the years the swings at 32kg brought this deficit into sharp relief - a surprise that wasn't really a surprise - in Pavel I trust.

So that's a long winded tale for arriving at S&S - I'll likely get to Timeless in 2-3 weeks. I'll test 4 weeks after that. I've already stuck with this longer than i might have done a barbell refresher. I've even recruited a few old friends to S&S with me, from afar and digitally. Will i make the classic mistake of quitting because the program worked so well? Maybe - but this posting might keep me accountable. No doubt I'll wander into the RKC bent press and snatch PM at some point. Jon Engum's PM^2 article looks like a good framework for carrying S&S momentum forward into specialized variety. Pavel's Workout of the Decade spoke to me though - the timing couldn't have been more perfect for my life circumstances. And so S&S is my task.

 

[barrak]

Or maybe it's just the bell size relative to my body weight makes it easier for me, regardless of training history.

32 kg TGU is 31% of my bodyweight (~102 kg).

That math works out quite differently for a 75 kg bodyweight guy.

I guess bone structure plays a part too. My late dad and my brother are both heavily built and can handle a 50K sack easily, without training or psyching. I, on the other hand, graduated college at 115lb (52K). I had to train hard over the years, including reaching Simple and continuing with sandbags, to be able now at 162lb (73K) to handle such a sack... with lots of warmup and psyching.

 

[watchnerd]

I guess bone structure plays a part too. My late dad and my brother are both heavily built and can handle a 50K sack easily, without training or psyching.

Frame matters a lot.

There is also probably a sample selection bias in training modalities based on body structure.

And in my case, long before I knew what a kettlebell was, before I went to college, I worked in logging.

And played football and rugby.

Those adaptations to my connective tissues and bone density have probably been lifelong.

At my last Dexa scan, my bone mineral content density is in the 99th percentile....compared to 35 year olds.

And I'm 50.

 

[watchnerd]

II had to train hard over the years, including reaching Simple and continuing with sandbags, to be able now at 162lb (73K) to handle such a sack... with lots of warmup and psyching.

So to put things in perspective in terms of how unfair these comparisons are:

My current lean body mass (169 lbs), as of testing on 12/23/20, is more than your entire bodyweight.

Your college graduation bodyweight is what I weighed when I was probably 11 or 12 years old.

The "Timed Simple" standard only varies by gender, not by bodyweight or age.

It's not a level playing field for all participants, barbell training background or not.