Barbell Size with strength focused training?
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
To Some Degree
There are some variable factors that come into play.
First, let look at...
Hypertrophy Training
The training protocol is...
1) Moderate To High Repetitions
2) Moderate Loads
3) Usually Short Rest Periods Between Sets
If only Hypertrophy Training is followed, an increase in muscle mass occurs at the expense of Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.
Maximum Strength Training
The training protocol is...
1) Low Repetitions
2) Heavy Loads
3) Long Rest Periods Between Sets
If only Maximum Strength is followed, strength is increased with some degree of decrease in muscle size.
See Saw Effect
Think of Maximum Strength being on one side of a See Saw and Hypertrophy being on the other side of it.
When one side goes up, the other side goes down.
Let examine methods that paradoxically enables you to increase Maximum Strength, Power and/or Speed (dependent how the program is written/followed) while increasing muscle mass.
Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training
Dr. Jonathan Oliver research determine Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training ensured increases in muscle mass as well as strength.
The research data is available online. However, this article does a nice job of breaking it down.
Get Big Without Getting Slow: Cluster Training
When intensity and volume are matched, cluster sets:
- Increase power to a greater degree
- Increase strength to a greater degree
- Result in similar lean mass gains
This method is the foundation of the Westside Training Protocol.
This method incorporates multiple Strength Training Methods during the same training cycle: Maximum Strength (Max Effort), Speed Training (Speed is a misnomer, it is Power Training) and the Repetition Method (Hypertrophy Training)
Research by Dr. Michael Zourdos determined that Conjugate Training was more effective at increasing Maximum Strength.
Conjugate Training provide a Synergistic Effect: the whole is greater that the sum of its parts.
Synergistic Example
Adding 2 + 2 and getting 5.
Dr. Brad Schoenfeld's Hypertrophy Research
Schoenfeld research concluded...
Three Mechanism Trigger Optimal Hypertrophy
1) Mechanical Tension: This is Maximum Strength Training
2) Metabolic Stress: This is elicited with Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy Training
3) Muscle Damage: This is produced with high intensity training sets; pushing at times to failure or near failure.
It is also triggered with full range movement in a resistance/weighted movement; a Loaded Stretching of the muscles in a movement triggers an anabolic effect.
Examples
Full Squats, Dumbbell Bench Presses (this allows a deeper stretch of the muscles), etc.
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
when moving from a hypertrophy focussed program to a strength focussed program I've never lost any discernible size but my protein intake is usually quite high and I've never spent more than ~6 months in a strength phase before returning to a hypertrophy focus. the last time I did this was a few years ago when i spent four or five months on Justa Singles after coming off, then going back on, a Brawn style program for hypertrophy
Considering that powerlifters usually have a hypertrophy cycle before moving into a strength cycle and then peak you should not lose any muscle, or size if you cycle them.
But also having a plan that stays in the low reps of hypertrophy training 6-8 mainly will give you a bit of both.
But also having a plan that stays in the low reps of hypertrophy training 6-8 mainly will give you a bit of both.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
As long as the strength component were challenging and the diet was good I don't see how you would lose any muscle.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Not Necessarily
Many Powerlifting Programs employ Conjugate Training: Maximum Strength, Power and Strength are contained within the same training cycle.
Conjugate Training Program do so are...
1) The Westside Powerlifting Method
2) Individual who employ Dr. Michael Zourdos Conjugate Method
Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training
This approach increases muscle mass, while circumvents the issue with a loss of Strength from a Traditional Bodybuilding/Hypertrophy Training Program.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
A decrease in muscle size, not a decrease in muscle mass occurs.
@kennycro@@aol.com, please correct me if I'm wrong, but the underlying principle of the "cluster training" article you cite above might simply be summarized much along the lines of the Bear program in PTTP - sets of 5 on relatively short rests for both strength and hypertrophy.
In my own training, I've recently followed a 5 x 5 approach. I did 5 sets of 5 reps on one weekly heavy day with additional easier days each week, and I purposely let my rest periods get longer and longer as the weights grew heavier and heavier. One could interpret this as a cycle that focused more on hypertrophy at the beginning and more on strength at the end, but for me, it was simpler than that - I just took the rest I needed in order to get 5 sets of 5 with my current weight, and as the weights got heavier, I needed more rest. It worked great for me, and at the end of the day, it all goes back to my reading of PTTP 20 years ago - 5's are the sweet spot for strength and hypertrophy; use high frequency and long rests to bias towards strength, use lower frequency and shorter rests to bias towards hypertrophy; adjust to suit what you're trying to accomplish.
-S-
In my own training, I've recently followed a 5 x 5 approach. I did 5 sets of 5 reps on one weekly heavy day with additional easier days each week, and I purposely let my rest periods get longer and longer as the weights grew heavier and heavier. One could interpret this as a cycle that focused more on hypertrophy at the beginning and more on strength at the end, but for me, it was simpler than that - I just took the rest I needed in order to get 5 sets of 5 with my current weight, and as the weights got heavier, I needed more rest. It worked great for me, and at the end of the day, it all goes back to my reading of PTTP 20 years ago - 5's are the sweet spot for strength and hypertrophy; use high frequency and long rests to bias towards strength, use lower frequency and shorter rests to bias towards hypertrophy; adjust to suit what you're trying to accomplish.
-S-
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
The Bear
I am not familiar with the Bear Program.
Based on what you stated, it appears it is Cluster Set Training that would increase Strength or Power dependent on the Training Percentages used and the Rest Times allocated between each cluster of repetitions.
Oliver's Research indicated that shorter rest between each cluster of repetition tended produce a more effective increase in muscle mass.
As you mentioned, short rest periods between each cluster of repetition means less weight can be used; something like 10 - 20 seconds.
The longer the rest, as you mentioned, allows heavier loads to be used. As you know, longer rest period allow for greater ATP Muscle Restoration, necessary for explosive movements and strength.
Dr. Gregg Haff's (former Olympic Lifter) research found that almost 80% of ATP is restored in 45 seconds.
This falls in line with this type of training...
Every Minute On The Minute, EMOM
The Westside Speed Training (Power Training) is essentially based on this method.
Squat Example
12 Set of 2 Repetition of Box Squat are preformed.
60 seconds of Rest is allowed between each Set of 2 Repetitions.
That is how I would interpret it, as wells.
That all that matters.
Agreed.
Caveat of Custer Set Hypertrophy Training
As per Oliver's research, one of the keys to Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training is that each repetition in each cluster needs to be performed explosively. Doing so innervates the "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber and the Fast Twitch Type IIa.
These Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are exhausted quickly due in part to their reliance no ATP.
After approximately 15 second the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are not firing; they are not being worked or trained because they are out of ATP, gas.
Once Power or Speed drops. more rest is needed or the exercise need to be terminated.
That because the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are no longer involved.
Continuing once Power or Speed drops mean you are no longer training/developing the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.
Personal Perspective
In experimenting with Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training, I feel that my optimal results have come with somewhat lighter loads that are performed with greater Power and Speed and shorter rest periods between each set of repetition clusters.
On my Power Training Cluster Set Days, my rest periods between each set of repetition cluster is just under a minute. This definitely allows me to push/pull more weight.
That based on my personal perspective more so than any research data that I have found.
With said, here is some good advice...
Hardartery
Level 5 Valued Member
One of the underlying theories behind short rest periods in Westside (I won't say Conjugate in a broader sense, because I am not familiar with Conjugate outside of Westseide/EliteFTS) is muscle fibre recruitment. The information at the time indicated that specific muscle fibre recruitment occurs in a lift, like your muscle has a 1st line or A-team. The idea was that rests of under 1 minute maintained recruitment of that first set of fibres without allowing adaptation within the muscle to recruit other fibres. Longer rests permit a greater involvement of the overall body of muscle fibres within the muscle, theoretically, which means that as the fibres fatigue you achieve activation of the other fibres in the muscle on successive sets. I do not know if the science currently backs that theory up or not. Personally, I feel that in heavy sets the longer rests achieve greater replenishment of glycogen and depleted minerls in the muscle permitting greater ability to generate force over successive sets. If you go hard, there isn't much left to work with in the tissue and you need to allow the muscles some reload time. Really heavy training, and there are some examples of guys like Halfthor doing his DL training before the record, can frequently involve rests aproaching 10 minutes. There is an even greater compounding factor involved if the athlete is "Assisted", but that may not be appropriate discussion for this forum. (**Disclaimer- I competed lifetime natty, but that was true of virtually no one around me in Strongman, nor of the PLers that I was training around, so my thoughts on that are largely observational)
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
My use of clusters philosophy is that the rest times being short is enough to at least partially clear out inorganic phosphate from CrP pathway to maintain high contraction force, but not long enough for blood capture or other metabolites to clear. This triggers a nice mix of high tension from low volume work, with metabolic stress from high volume, all in a very short amount of time but with a much heavier load to rep count than you can hit with a straight set.
Is better to take longer rests between clusters, enough that rep speed is still rapid on the first cluster anyway. How many repeats will begin to determine the outcome - as rep speed slows from fatigue you'll be more hypertrophy focused. Terminating the cluster earlier will tilt it toward power. However even if you run the cluster out, those first few repeats improve power output over time regardless, or at least seem to.
I find this approach to be notably less mentally taxing for the amount of work being done, but (and maybe because of that) the added volume is a real thing and physically it requires a little more recovery.
Is better to take longer rests between clusters, enough that rep speed is still rapid on the first cluster anyway. How many repeats will begin to determine the outcome - as rep speed slows from fatigue you'll be more hypertrophy focused. Terminating the cluster earlier will tilt it toward power. However even if you run the cluster out, those first few repeats improve power output over time regardless, or at least seem to.
I find this approach to be notably less mentally taxing for the amount of work being done, but (and maybe because of that) the added volume is a real thing and physically it requires a little more recovery.
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
My two cents
if you switch to a program that emphasizes strength without size (Pttp, operator, etc) then you should expect to lose some mass.
I wouldn’t expect to lose much mass at all if you switch to a traditional powerlifting 12 week cycle or do a program like 531 BBB to gain strength.
if you switch to a program that emphasizes strength without size (Pttp, operator, etc) then you should expect to lose some mass.
I wouldn’t expect to lose much mass at all if you switch to a traditional powerlifting 12 week cycle or do a program like 531 BBB to gain strength.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Traditional Bodybuilding Training
This method of moderate to low loads with moderate to higher repetitions produces with increase in...
Lactate
"Accumulation of Metabolites (lactic acid > acidic environment > GH secretion)"
Practical Occlusion Training, 2009, Dr. Jeremy P Loenneke'
The increase in Lactate is one of the primary reasons why Traditional Bodybuilding Training is more effective than Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training.
As per Oliver, "...Total Testosterone, there is no change in the respose to between Cluster Sets and Traditional Bodybuilding Sets; Growth Hormone, there is a difference. Growth hormone is a little bit lower following a Cluster Set than a Traditional Set."
The Downside of Hyperterophy Training
Traditional Bodybuilding Training, as Oliver notes, produce a little bit more Hypertrophy.
However, as research and anecdotal data demonstrate it comes at the expense of a decease in Maximum Strength, Power and Speed.
As someone once said about Bodybuilder who solely emply this approach, "They look like Tarzan and lift like Jane".
As Strength Coach, Charles Poliquin once said, "Bodybuilding is a Beauty Contest."
Power Cluster Sets
The point of Cluster Sets in Power Training is to ensure Power Output Production remain high; that the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are being engaged, trained and developed.
Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber fatigue quickly with, Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Movement decrease in seconds.
Once fatigued, these larger, stronger, explosive fiber are no longer innervated.
As the number or repetition/fatigue increases the muscle fiber shifts from "Super" Fast Type IIb/x > Fast Twitch Type IIa > Slow Twitch Type I.
Continuing to push deeper into muscle fatigue eventually shifts; the workload to the Type I Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber.
If increasing the development of Type I Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber is the objective; this method is spot on.
However, if the objective is to increase Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber Size, Strength and Power; this method is counter productive.
Oliver Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training resarch found it ensured an increase in muscle mass while maintaining and/or increasing Power and Strength.
The result has a Paradoxical effect similar to...
The High Intensity Interval Training Paradox
The Tabata HIIT Protocol determinedn (as you know), "The moderate-intensity endurance training program produced a significant increase in V02max (about 10%), but had no effect on anaerobic capacity. The high-intensity intermittent protocol improved V02max by about 14%; anaerobic capacity increased by a whopping 28%.
Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training's paradox is that it increased muscle mass, while increasing Power and Strength at the same time.
This doesn't mean Traditional Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Training should be avoided.
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Not Exactly
You're not going to lose muscle mass per se. At some point, you may lose some muscle size.
That due to a decrese in...
Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy
These fiber are similar to being a balloon.
Big muscle that look good but are useless.
With Strength, Power and Speed Trainng there is an increase in...
Myofibrillar Hypertrophy
These fiber are like a smaller brick.
Somewhat smaller muscles but ones that serve a purpose, that are usefull.
Traditional Periodization Training
It still has a place in some training: General Pepardness, Hypertrophy, ...then the Training Block shift dependent on the sport. The blocks of Maximum Strenth, Power and Speed depent on the sport.
The issue with Training Blocks is that the emphasis of one type of strength is increraased at the expense of the other strengths.
A focus on Hypertrophy produce a decrease in Maxium Strength, Power and Speed.
An emphasis in Maximum Strength comes at the expense of a decrese in Power and Speed.
There is some truth to the old addage that Maximum Strength Training makes you slow.
Conjugate Training
I'm a proponent of training diffent type of strength in the same program.
Doing so, as Zourdos research shows, produces a synertistic effect.
The emphasis of the program can be targeted more to one strength than another. Should someone want to increase muscle mass, put more of your training effort in it.
A 5/3/1 Program
This is a Strength Training Program rather than a Hypertrophy Training.
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
Good point, I was speaking in the simpler “lose size and some weight” sense of mass. The muscle fibers are still there like you pointed out.
At some point this may be true, but for many people in the beginner and intermediate phases of training, hypertrophy and strength go together quite well. Most people will put on mass doing a strength focused program, provided it isn’t a program specially designed to prevent mass gain (pttp vs reg park 5x5). Fair warning, I am extrapolating off of my personal experiences and anecdotes from others. Poking around i do find some data supporting this, but hardly something I would say I researched well. So I should probably defer to you.
I think we are agreeing here, but I’m referencing a specific variant of a specific program that is a bit different from the vanilla version. The specific variant of 531 I’m referring to uses 10/3-5 of the main lifts during each week of the cycle resulting in pretty good size and strength gains. Wendler was heavily influenced by west side and eliteFTS and it shows in the “boring but big” variant. And the other variant I can’t remember the name of, but Dave tate wrote the assistance protocol.
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
I would add the last set of the traditional 531 workout is AMRAP so definite growth potential
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
That is what I thought you meant.
Agreed.
The nice thing about being a beginner is everything work. They are like a dry sponge, they soak up everything
Grow Like A New Lifter...Again
Grow Like a New Lifter Again?
Why can a new lifter add muscle so quickly? Can you recreate those conditions? That's the question we ask as the backdrop for this treatise on muscle growth
www.strongerbyscience.com
Dr. Greg Nuckols has an interesting theory.
If you take a break from training and go back to it you may be able to make gains similar to a beginner.
His premise remind me of...
Yo-Yo Dieting
Yo-Yo Diet gets a bad rap. As we know, the tradition belief is the it referes to people going off a diet. They then gain all the weight they lost back and then gain even more weight. In this instance that is true.
However, the MADATOR Diet is based on losing weight with Yo -Yo Dieting as is traditioinal the Bodybuilding Bulk and Cut Cycles.
The MATATOR Diet Yo-Yo decreased calories for a couple of weeks; weight loss occurs.
The body's metabolism decreases and stabilize after approximately two weeks; weight loss stops.
You then increse you calorie intake back up for a few weeks; some weight gain occurs but it should not be that much.
You then drop you calorie intake again for two weeks.
The end result is with the Yo-Yo MATADOR Diet,. you end up taking two steps forward and one step back. In other word, you end up losing more than you gain.
It is a game you are playing with your body to manipulate your metabolism to get it to do what you want it to do, lose weight/body fat.
Periodization Trainng Cycles
That is what Periodization Training Cyles are about.
Nuckols approach adhears to the same principle. Taking time off, like going off you diet.
You then Yo-Yo back up when you start training again. You gain back your strength and size, plus more. It sounds feasible.
Agreed. You learn a lot from you own trial and error and other, as well.
More strength than size. It is a strength program.
Wendler is a smart guy. What make me nuts is how he is credited with the 5/3/1 Training Program that has been around forever.
Who Discovered America?
Wendler is somewhat like Columbus. Columbus was credited with discovering America.
I just looked this up and learned something. Eviently, Leif Ericson was the first to discover America...which I didn't know.
As the joke goes, the Indians knew American was here long before anyone else.
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North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
In my experience, running the last set out on any arrangement of set/load/reps will make it a size builder. Back in the late 80s/early 90s it was common for bodybuilding sets to be structured pyramid up a 2-4 rep max set followed by a lighter high rep set.
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
What’s funny is in my hometown we were taught Leif discovered America instead of Columbus. They even had a statue of him in the park. I didn’t know most people thought Columbus discovered it until moving away.
Everyone is named Johnson or Oleson and there is an annual lutefisk eating contest. so they have a bit of bias up there.
Nate
Level 6 Valued Member
While there are a million 5/3/1 templates, BBB does have quite a bit of volume. Consider 3 days could look like:
Mon:
A) Med Ball Throws 3x5
B1) Press 5/3/1 Sets (max reps on last set)
B2) Chins x 5-10
C1) Bench 5x10
C2) Rows 5x10
D1) Dips 3x10
D2) Curls 3x10
D3) Band Pull Aparts 3x25
Tues:
A) Power Cleans 3x5
B) Deadlift 5/3/1 Sets (max reps on last set)
C1) Squat 5x10
C2) Ab Wheel 5x10
Wed:
Prowler Work or Hill Sprints
Mon:
A) Med Ball Throws 3x5
B1) Press 5/3/1 Sets (max reps on last set)
B2) Chins x 5-10
C1) Bench 5x10
C2) Rows 5x10
D1) Dips 3x10
D2) Curls 3x10
D3) Band Pull Aparts 3x25
Tues:
A) Power Cleans 3x5
B) Deadlift 5/3/1 Sets (max reps on last set)
C1) Squat 5x10
C2) Ab Wheel 5x10
Wed:
Prowler Work or Hill Sprints
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