Barbell So how much do you guys know about the Bulgarian Method?????

[ILikeToSquat]

Ok peeps I have a lot of info to communicate - I apologize in advance but I'll be as succinct as I can.

So I started out reading Pavel's books, and I really liked them. I did GTG for pistol squats back in 2012 and went from not being able to do one to doing 6 per leg in 2 weeks, and have been hooked on eastern methods ever since!

About a year and a half ago I started on the Bulgarian squat method as taught to me by John Broz. However, I think I asked him too many questions and was maybe a little immature (not profane or vulgar, but I get a little hyper when I'm excited) so he's not talking to me anymore. So I am, coming full circle back to Pavel and friends for advice.

Now I know what some of you are thinking, but IT DOES WORK, at least for me. I ran it for front squats for a while, and put 50 lbs on my max within 3 months. Then I tried back squat and it took me a while but I DID adapt because eventually something just changed one day inside my brain and the gains started coming fast and furious, starting with 30 lbs in one month alone, and they continue even now

Also, do **not** lecture me about steroids - yes the bulgarians were on them, (I'm sure the russkies neeeeever used them though), but I'm not and neither are Broz's students for that matter, and so far its still the best squatting method I ever used. And yes, my hips knees and back are just fine too.

SO HERE'S WHERE I'D LIKE YOUR HELP
1) I want to do FS as well as BS with this program. I'm not an oly lifter, but I'm always more functionally strong if I have a secondary or even tertiary exercise for a given muscle group. But here's the problem: As Broz and Abadjiev point out, and as oly coach Glenn Pendlay also concurs, *not* training every day actually leads to injuries due to the inconsistent rates of recovery among tissues, and by maxing every day you actually keep them all equally fatigued, so that the faster-recovering tissues cannot contract hard enough to harm the less quickly recovering ones, hence also the importance of autoregulation in this program. I know from experience that FS works some areas of my body differently than BS does, and I dont have time or resources to do both every day like Brozs finest do, so my question is this: if I only do BS 5x/week and FS 2x/week, are they sufficiently dissimilar that doing so will that put me in danger of injury for the aforementioned reasons????

2) How much volume do I really need to sustain progress? As Alexiev himself pointed out, training in the 1-3 rep range is not sustainable long term because eventually you max out the neural efficiency of a muscle (or something like that) and you need to actually start adding muscle fibers, aka volume/bodybuilding work. I think Broz said to shoot for about 30 total reps or something, but I'm not sure.

WHAT IM DOING RIGHT NOW
7x+/week: low-bar squat to max single (never to failure, but as close as possible while maintaining acceptable technique), then 6-7 sets x 2-3 reps for backoff @ 80-90% of best single that day (triples every third day). Use 5 minute rest after 90% and 3 min rest for the backoff sets.

What I would like to do: for two of those days do FS instead of BS

all-time bests: 325 lbs (BS), 262.5 lbs (FS), 365 lbs (DL)

 

[ILikeToSquat]

Few more small things I forgot

age: 26 1/2
race: white (iberian spanish/irish/british admixture)
health conditions: physically I'm fine, but when I tell ppl how I squat they sometime question my sanity
build: average/mesomorph
height: 5 ft 9
weight: 180ish (I don't think I'm overweight though - my waist is quite slender and its my quads that are looking rather large)

Sports: right now just lifting, but I used to do some karate and krav maga (I'm told I hit like a truck)

Injury history: Almost nonexistent! I had TWO GYM BUDDIES - younger than me - who both herniated disks doing DLs, and my dad hurt his back when he was a lil younger than me doing them too - I DL more than any of them ever did and yet I have NEVER hurt myself doing it! NEVER! EARLY ON as I was learning to squat, I leaned forward a bit too much and pulled my lower back muscles, but I was back to squatting within week and have had no issues in over a year.

So not to toot my own horn, but I seem to possess a rather robust bone structure!

 

[Kettlebelephant]

all-time bests: 325 lbs (BS), 262.5 lbs (FS), 365 lbs (DL)

If you're not like 5'5 or smaller those are numbers that you reach after 5-6 months of linear progression. Absolutely no need for some fancy, specialized, high frequeny + volume (maxing out 7x+ per week? WTF?) squat program.

Get on the Texas Method, do the program as written and get back to us in a couple of months.
If those are your real numbers and you really do the program you'll be adding 30-50lbs (maybe more) to every of those withing the next 6-12 months.

EDIT: My post maybe comes of a kind of negative. It's not my intention to make light of your achieved lifts or something like that.
It's still what it is. Those are numbers that put you in the middle of the pack for intermediate lifters, so pick a fitting routine.
Something like the one you're asking about is for advanced or possibly even elite level lifters.

 

[ILikeToSquat]

Get on the Texas Method, do the program as written and get back to us in a couple of months.
If those are your real numbers and you really do the program you'll be adding 30-50lbs (maybe more) to every of those withing the next 6-12 months.

Except that Mr Broz says his method has been known to put almost 200 lbs on ones max within a year, even for less advanced trainees. I guess if the bulgarian method REALLY stops working I'll consider something else, but then again, as outrageous as his claims sound, would he have produced beasts like 800-lb ATG squatter Pat Mendez if he was a con artist?

 

[ILikeToSquat]

Additionally, even if I reduce volume/intensity/whatever, I insist on a higher frequency program. Also in Beyond Bodybuilding, Pavel recounts the story of Judd Biassioto who completed "15 heavy sets of bench within an hour" and took his max from 140 lbs to 295 lbs in a mere 9 months. Granted, I don't train *every* exercise in my arsenal like that, but I'm a staunch believer in the power of daily training

 

[Kettlebelephant]

I get that you like to train more frequently (I like it, too), but it's not necessary.

Except that Mr Broz says his method has been known to put almost 200 lbs on ones max within a year, even for less advanced trainees.

Most males at least can squat 135lbs when they first touch a barbell.
If you really follow a linear progression like Starting Strength it's common to hit 315 for a set of 5 within your first 6-8 months.
That's a ~200lbs increase in less than a year, too. Additionally you'll increase all the other lifts significantly aswell.
And that's with "only" 3 sessions per week and for most of the guys in ~half a year.

even for less advanced trainees

Why "even"?
Beginners and Intermediates can make the most gains in the least amount of time. I'd be surprise if he'd say that he'll put 200lbs on an advanced squatter within a year. That would be way more impressive then "less advanced trainees".
I heavily doubt that he can put 200lbs on an almost-advanced or advanced lifter.

but then again, as outrageous as his claims sound, would he have produced beasts like 800-lb ATG squatter Pat Mendez if he was a con artist?

1) nobody called him a con-artist or said his routine doesn't work. I just said another routine works better/is more time efficient for a certain demographic (in this case intermediate lifters -> you) than his routine.
2) Pat Mendes is the absolute weakest argument you could go for.
Pat is...
a)...by far the strongest guy training in Broz gym. That's like saying a certain sprint routine is the best, because Usain Bolt used it.
Which brings me to...
b)...he's genetically very gifted and therefore probably would have excelled on basically any routine. (Like Bolt would have)
and finally...
c)...he was repeatedly tested positive for PEDs and because of this repeatedly banned from contests.

If you want to evaluate how good a certain routine is look at the results of average Joes who do it and not genetic freaks that also heavily rely on steroids.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

You know my standpoint on this now.
I won't answer anymore, because I get the impression that it would be futile.
You're an adult, so you can do whatever you want.

I'll just leave you with this excerpt from Powerliftingtowin's review of the Bulgarian Method (a website that reviews strength routines) -> The Bulgarian Method for Powerlifting

I personally believe that something akin to the Bulgarian Method is the final destination for all lifters who continue to train long enough and want to set PRs for a life time. Eventually, you’ll have no choice but to lift five or six times a week if you want to get in the necessary volume to make progress.
However, the issue is that too many novices and intermediates see the amazing results these guys produced without considering the context. They only see what they were doing at their peak and not what they had to go through to get there. You cannot start at the end. If you try, the results will be predictable.
In short, the Bulgarian Method is a fantastic, highly intelligent way to train – assuming you’re qualified to be training that way. Most of you just aren’t. Most people who look at methods like this are seeking the holy grail program; most people who look at methods like this, though they’ll never admit it, are looking for quick, easy, fast progress in exchange for brutalizing themselves in the short term. Avoid these narrow-sighted views. Train for the long term. Embrace the grind. Embrace the journey. Accept that mastery is going to take you a decade.
Or don’t. The choice is yours. I firmly believe you will never achieve your potential if you try to short-circuit the process.

Good luck on your journey!

 

[Antti]

I think I'll side closer to @Kettlebelephant in this discussion. He is right when it comes to the numbers.

But in general I think both approaches can and will work. But I think there's a limit to to the total amount of training one can do in a week. That is dependent on two things, mostly your adaptation, which has a lot to do on your proficiency, and your recovery capabilities. To me it it doesn't sound like you're at the level yet where you have the adaptation in you to increase the workload that would necessitate more times a week. At the extreme, take the Smolov routine you must know from Beyond Bodybuilding; that kind of training load demands a high proficiency, if I remember right Pavel expected one to lift at the minimum four or was it five plates a side in order to take the program. So, even if the Bulgarian system isn't the Smolov, I don't see that you're at the level where you would need the increased training load to progress. Three times a week of 20-30 reps at an appropriate load should be well enough for a long, long time.

But if you love lifting and want to do it as often as possible, by all means squat every day, do two sessions a day if you feel like it. Just keep the sessions at an appropriate intensity and the volume low at a time. I wouldn't chase a technical max every day at this point. But then again, it works for some. Try it out at your own risk, have a coach and make it really certain that you know how and when to fail. This is what I recommend to when it gets to your point about injury, no matter how you dice it with the high frequency style.

And when it comes to the recovery, make sure you eat a lot more than you do now and get a lot of sleep as well. Try to take naps whenever you can.

Best of luck.

 

[jef]

Bulgarian method worked, yes.
But how many athletes started the method, how many were burnt out, and along those who succeeded, how many lasted?

Not sure it is the best approach for general population.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I have given many methods a shot in the course of my days. I followed Broz and Cory Gregory work with squatting everyday for a couple months. I liked it and found it worked well too. It was difficult for me to keep up with my schedule so I moved to lower frequency programs. I would only work up to a max every day though and not do any backoff sets. I don't think you need those. I would do a heavy 5, 3, 2, and 1. Each set about 20-50# heavier than the one before it. There is no real need for back off sets on a program like this in my opinion. Also, I was front squatting 50%, zercher squatting 30%, and back squatting only 20%. I found a lot of the benefit came from mentally being comfortable under heavy and didn't feel the need to BS often as BSing can be substantially more fatiguing as I was also DLing twice per week and felt the FS and ZS complemented better and didn't overlap as much as the BS.

If you enjoy it, do it!

 

[ILikeToSquat]

Alright guys thank you for your replies.

I guess I kind of misjudged starting strength. I thought "starting" meant it was only for beginners whereas since I'm technically an early intermediate maybe I needed something more painful.

I'll tell you what. I'll take everything you all have said to heart and consider dialing back my volume. Actually, Daily squatting advocate Brett Contreras, who lifts far more than I do, has this thing he does where he has "heavy" days and "light days" - light days you just go to max and leave it at that whereas on heavy days you would do 3x2 for backoff. also some guy I conversed with on youtube squats like 50% more than me does the same thing. I thought they were just being cowards but then again maybe not.

I probably wont give up the bulgarian program immediately - at least for the time being I'll definitely cut back on volume to an as yet indeterminate degree, and probably start reinstating it once I hit the 405lb mark.

I have given many methods a shot in the course of my days. I followed Broz and Cory Gregory work with squatting everyday for a couple months. I liked it and found it worked well too. It was difficult for me to keep up with my schedule so I moved to lower frequency programs. I would only work up to a max every day though and not do any backoff sets. I don't think you need those. I would do a heavy 5, 3, 2, and 1. Each set about 20-50# heavier than the one before it. There is no real need for back off sets on a program like this in my opinion. Also, I was front squatting 50%, zercher squatting 30%, and back squatting only 20%. I found a lot of the benefit came from mentally being comfortable under heavy and didn't feel the need to BS often as BSing can be substantially more fatiguing as I was also DLing twice per week and felt the FS and ZS complemented better and didn't overlap as much as the BS.

If you enjoy it, do it!

Greetings, fellow daily squatter! Yeah I did see CG's section about daily squatting on bb.com and found it kind of odd that he seemingly had no backoff sets yet somehow managed to get much further along then I have. I thought it was a mistake but then again maybe not. Like I said I'm gonna have to cut volume. just curious what is your max BS right now?

 

[Bill Been]

The best comprehensive explanation of both is contained in "Practical Programming for Strength Training", 3rd Edition by Andy Baker and Mark Rippetoe.

1. You're not an Intermediate lifter. You're a Novice. This is good news, because as you will see after you read and understand the above book, Novices can get stronger every 48-72 hours, and using programming that takes advantage of that capacity, you'll end up 4-5 months from now squatting in the mid to high 300s for 3 sets of 5 instead of 315 for a single;

2. You need to stop assuming people who lift more weight than you have expertise about lifting and programming. The idea that some guy that lifts more than you is going to have a great deal of insight into the mechanics of a squat doesn't make any more sense than expecting a 12 year-old kid who happens to throw a tighter spiral than you to explain how to do it;

3. You need to immediately bin the idea that the programming required by an 800lb squatter has any relevance to you.....at all. You are far from your genetic ceiling. He is not. You can add weight to the bar, train, recover, adapt, and repeat every session. He cannot. And finally;

4. You need to understand that you do not get stronger from lifting weights. You get stronger from RECOVERING FROM lifting weights.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I don't know, I haven't BS in a few years. At the time I was only working up to 365-405. For FS I was working up to 255-275.

 

[Bill Been]

I don't know, I haven't BS in a few years. At the time I was only working up to 365-405. For FS I was working up to 255-275.

I hope you didn't think that was aimed at you, BroMo.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

@Bill Been No, but ok if it was as I don't consider myself that strong.

OP,
We can all learn more about good programming. Simply learn the lessons you can from each program you try and don't get too attached to any one method. A program is like a book. Some are classics that help everyone become a better reader (think 5x5, starting strength, etc), others you might only understand a couple words in the whole thing. In those cases, it is important to read more different books so you'll get more out of each one in the future, especially if it's one you've already read. The important points made above are to not take any program as gospel and that spending time on some others will ultimately help you get more out of this one.

 

[305pelusa]

Darn people are harsh on OP. I'll give a very small suggestion to @ILikeToSquat . There's a book called "Squat Everyday" by Matt Perryman. It's a good overview on Bulgarian-style daily squatting if that's the kind of info you're after.

Hope that helps a bit

 

[Steve Freides]

Darn people are harsh on OP.

Yes, I agree.

I am not familiar with the Bulgarian method as it seems to have been explained in books and elsewhere, but I am a big fan of high-frequency training for myself, and perhaps it behooves us all to look at the basic principles involved here, which are explained in several of Pavel's books, including (but not limited to) Power To The People!, Enter The Kettlebell, and Beyond Bodybuilding.

The principles can be explained simply, assuming a compound exercise like the Squat:

Getting a pump, followed by proper recovery, will make you bigger. If the weight is sufficiently heavy, you'll become stronger due, in large part, to an increase in the size of your muscles.

Avoiding the pump by keeping the sets short, the rests long, and the training more frequent will make you a more skilled lifter with the muscles you've already got. If the weight is sufficiently heavy, you'll become stronger due, in large part, to your improved skill. (Doing some of both will get you some of both. At one end of this continuum might lie doing a big, heavy day once a week and little else, while at the other end might lie lifting moderately but repeatedly, very low volume sessions done several times each day, every day. There are many effective approaches to be found between these two.)

We know that, for both the above approaches, total training volume is an important determinant of strength - if you want to get stronger, you need to accumulate sufficient volume by whatever means.

So, @ILikeToSquat, if you like to squat and want to try squatting every day, I say: Go for it!

-S-

 

[JeffC]

@ILikeToSquat What you are talking about is called The Broz Method. He uses some of the little known Abadjiev era Bulgarian training philosophy, but it is all John Broz’s.

 

[MikeTheBear]

Ah, the infamous Bulgarian Method developed by "Uncle" Abadjiev.

First, I agree with @Kettlebelephant that Pat Mendes is not the best example of success using this method because he did use PEDs and the Broz method is the Broz method, as @Geoff Chafe mentioned.

Second, the "true" Bulgarian Method is somewhat of a mystery. It's not just training every day but doing multiple sessions a day. And by multiple I mean not just two but up to four training sessions per day. There is a rumor/anecdote that Abadjiev developed this method not for its training effect but to control his lifters. Unlike other athletes, weightlifters can be a little "looser" with their non-training time and still be successful. They can eat crap, especially the super heavies. They can smoke. In fact, there were stories that during the Olympics in the '80s and '90s the Turkish, Greek, and several East Bloc lifters would hang together outside between the snatch and the C&J to smoke. They literally smoked at the event! Don't see too many marathon runners stop to take a smoke. I'm sure these guys also liked to have a drink now and then. Of course, eating crap, drinking, and smoking will eventually affect the performance of a weightlifter, so it is understandable why a coach from a country where eating crap, drinking, and smoking are cultural norms would want to control his lifters' entire day.

Third, there was another rumor that Abadjiev was told to either produce champions or lose his job as national coach. The method thus became "natural selection." Training multiple times each day will take its toll even on a steroid user. Only the strong, but physically and mentally, could survive. Those that did were the best of the best, and the rest had to find a day job while dealing with injuries. Abadjiev kept his job in a communist system off the backs (and knees and shoulders) of his lifters, just like a true robber baron capitalist. Oh the irony.

Fourth, the method was applied to the Olympic lifts. Olympic lifts can be dropped so they have no eccentric component. It's the eccentric that causes the most muscle damage. The only lifts with an eccentric that the Bulgarians did were back squats and front squats. The Bulgarians did the classic lifts, the power versions, and front and back squats. That's it. While still tough, this is not nearly as bad as trying to do all three powerlifts multiple times each day.

Having said that, I agree with @Steve Freides that frequency is good. I also believe that "experimenting" with different training systems is good provided it is done intelligently. You also seem very curious about the Bulgarian method. This curiosity will not be satisfied until you try it. So here are my thoughts:

The book by Matt Perryman is good.

Frequent lifting does, in a way, actually prevent injuries. How can this be given all of the injured Bulgarians? Because you will not be able to train multiple sessions per day if you have a regular job. There is a dose limit here. Even Broz limited sessions to no more than 3/day (I think). Glenn Pendlay, who also had his own variation of the Bulgarian method, used no more than 2/day and gave his lifters the weekends off.

Everyone makes a big deal that the Bulgarian method has you max out each day. But this is a very mellow max. Even Abadjiev didn't require his lifters to work up to an all out max during the sessions (again, rumor has it). If you're popping caffeine pills, sniffing ammonia, and having your buddy slap you in the face before your daily max, you're doing it wrong. You'll go days where you'll hit the same weight for your daily max. This is going to take discipline on two almost contradictory levels. You'll need discipline to push yourself to go lift every day, especially after five straight days of the same daily max. While you'll need to push yourself, you'll also need the discipline to back off. So what if you've hit the same max for the past week?

When I was Olympic lifting and in desperate need to improve my snatch, I went two weeks where I did nothing but snatches and front squats each day with weekends off. After a few days warm ups were quick since it seemed as if my muscles were in a constant state of being "prepared" to train. By contrast, if I train squat once a week my legs seem really stiff and warm ups take some time. This is probably the reason behind the injury prevention thing.

I was tired and hungry during this experiment, but nothing bad happened. My snatch and front squat both improved nicely.

So, I encourage you to try this method. Just don't be a moron.

 

[JeffC]

The Bulgarian Method Explained - Juggernaut

No one can say it better than Max Aita does here. Simple comparison of Western vs Eastern Bloc training methodology.

I remember hearing the Bulgarians hardly ever squatted. Even though people claim it and apply it to the Squat. They did unilateral work like the Step Up and obviously developed, Bulgarian Split Squat. They did single leg work to increase Leg strength for recovery strength and Jerk strength without overloading their already overstressed erectors. They only Squatted if they were too injured to train the competition lifts.

If you did Bulgarian Powerlifting. You would do a few max intensity and low rep sets, in the three lifts, everyday, with very little else, and competing, mock meets, and/or testing very often. Little is known about finer details, but this is the basic structure.