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Spine Health=Actual Age

John Rhodes

John Rhodes

Level 4 Valued Member
There are a lot of quotes about “you’re as old as your spine/spine’s flexibility/etc.”. As we age we have to train our backs etc.

What do you think would happen to a yogi/gymnast that avoided kettlebell swings, deadlifts etc as they age?

If one searches the internet for back pain relief, it’s often some stretches or crawling exercises. Rarely do we hear, “you need to train the spine to make it strong..”.

So there are two camps as far as I’m concerned, the mobility/locomotor group and the weight training group. If someone was a weight training minimalist, what mobility/locomotion training would they need?

I am wrapping up Elements (movement program) and tested for Q&D to begin 12 weeks of it. Not training a pull for a while, I did 36kg one arm swings for 30s without a stop sign. Don’t want to run Q&D with my 40kg but maybe I should. I’m worried about getting imbalances or over training a motor pattern switching to a minimalist program, but want a strong back and all the other health benefits from KB training. Usually my shoulder hurts like hell from training the same press over and over again.

I also sacrifice strength in my posterior chain by sticking to calisthenics/Elements as well. So I’m just trying to think about how to get my body to agree with one or the other or to try a screw something up by “adding this here.” I have degenerative discs, arthritis in my hip, screws in my shoulders etc, so I gotta find something to kee my sanity and stay fit enough to be a good dad and worker. Any help is appreciated.
 
John Rhodes said:
There are a lot of quotes about “you’re as old as your spine/spine’s flexibility/etc.”. As we age we have to train our backs etc.

What do you think would happen to a yogi/gymnast that avoided kettlebell swings, deadlifts etc as they age?

If one searches the internet for back pain relief, it’s often some stretches or crawling exercises. Rarely do we hear, “you need to train the spine to make it strong..”.

So there are two camps as far as I’m concerned, the mobility/locomotor group and the weight training group. If someone was a weight training minimalist, what mobility/locomotion training would they need?

I am wrapping up Elements (movement program) and tested for Q&D to begin 12 weeks of it. Not training a pull for a while, I did 36kg one arm swings for 30s without a stop sign. Don’t want to run Q&D with my 40kg but maybe I should. I’m worried about getting imbalances or over training a motor pattern switching to a minimalist program, but want a strong back and all the other health benefits from KB training. Usually my shoulder hurts like hell from training the same press over and over again.

I also sacrifice strength in my posterior chain by sticking to calisthenics/Elements as well. So I’m just trying to think about how to get my body to agree with one or the other or to try a screw something up by “adding this here.” I have degenerative discs, arthritis in my hip, screws in my shoulders etc, so I gotta find something to kee my sanity and stay fit enough to be a good dad and worker. Any help is appreciated.
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I'd think you'd be okay. I would say keep calisthenics as a main dish, really working on regressions/progressions that improve your mobility and make your body feel great. Maybe some back bridging, seated twisting and possibly hanging but in a progressive way with careful attention paid to existing injuries. Then treat your kettlebell lifting like an appetizer or something to sprinkle in. Practice the skill of kettlebell lifting maybe that's grease the groove or just doing low volume each week with great attention to form.

Just some ideas.
 
I have many similar ailments - facet arthritis in my lower back, degenerative cervical discs, multiple wrist surgeries.

I do a lot of overcoming isometrics. The literature (and my experience) indicates much positive outcome. Improved mobility, increased joint fluid viscosity, analgesic effect on joint pain. It also preferentially recruits high threshold motor units and increases force transfer/rate of force production via stiffening of the tendons.

From a traditional training POV, direct ab work directly helps with lower back pain and function.
 
@John Rhodes, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. As we age, addressing (read: trying to improve) our weakest links can only become increasingly important. I use "weakest" in a generic sense here, e.g., if you're chronically tight and that causes you problems, then maybe stretching needs to be your focus.

The idea of having your own personal minimum standards for what you need to be happy and healthy is important here. Do what you need to do in order to keep your personal machine running smoothly.

If we're to be more general in our discussion, I think "Strong, First" is the best approach. Lacking strength can be the root cause of many maladies. We know - from research I read about in one of Pavel's books - that a strong muscle can relax much more quickly than a weak one. It follows that a strong person can improve their flexibility and joint mobility faster than a weak person can.

IOW, I don't think there is a "one size fits all" solution to be had here. Each of us needs to figure out what our priorities need to be and then practice methods that lead to progress with those issues.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
@John Rhodes, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. As we age, addressing (read: trying to improve) our weakest links can only become increasingly important. I use "weakest" in a generic sense here, e.g., if you're chronically tight and that causes you problems, then maybe stretching needs to be your focus.

The idea of having your own personal minimum standards for what you need to be happy and healthy is important here. Do what you need to do in order to keep your personal machine running smoothly.

If we're to be more general in our discussion, I think "Strong, First" is the best approach. Lacking strength can be the root cause of many maladies. We know - from research I read about in one of Pavel's books - that a strong muscle can relax much more quickly than a weak one. It follows that a strong person can improve their flexibility and joint mobility faster than a weak person can.

IOW, I don't think there is a "one size fits all" solution to be had here. Each of us needs to figure out what our priorities need to be and then practice methods that lead to progress with those issues.

-S-
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I “tweaked my spine at work” a month ago. That never, ever happens if I train with weights on the regular. So I’m gonna work on some minimum standards.
 
Adam R Mundorf said:
I'd think you'd be okay. I would say keep calisthenics as a main dish, really working on regressions/progressions that improve your mobility and make your body feel great. Maybe some back bridging, seated twisting and possibly hanging but in a progressive way with careful attention paid to existing injuries. Then treat your kettlebell lifting like an appetizer or something to sprinkle in. Practice the skill of kettlebell lifting maybe that's grease the groove or just doing low volume each week with great attention to form.

Just some ideas.
Click to expand...
There was a recent article from Elements’s Ryan about his own routine which includes KB TGUs and swings. (I respect his genuine approach since he does not currently have and he says will not have any KB program that he sells)

I was struggling to have a balance in between my KB skills work and my calisthenics/movement work. Then sometime ago, I came up with the following approach by the help of S&S book.

I see my KB skills efforts as my strength and conditioning efforts. I see my calisthenics/movement efforts as my “sports”. One can argue against this categorization however it did help me a lot to strike a good balance. Whenever a program, a person talks about their martial arts practice etc, I put my “elements/GMB movement programs” in to that category. And keep KB skills in my mind as S&C.

I hope this makes sense, in this way, my efforts are feeding each other in my mind but not competing. And just a tip, once you get familiar with “elements” to retain your skills does not require a lot and the program lets you select 15 minutes long sessions.

In my mind, this approach also fits well with some of Steve’s advices. One does not need to be strong in every single angle so one can pick up a few exercises and become strong in those exercise and hence become a strong person, but one should be able to move around in many ways.

And if you have “gaps” in yourself that you struggle to “fix” with some programs (they might be great programs but none of the programs can be everything for everyone if they want to fix some personal problems gaps”) Brett Jones mind the gap is an amazing program IMHO. It is a minimalist approach to address the gaps that you might have which your beloved minimalist program might not address directly.
 
Adam R Mundorf said:
I'd think you'd be okay. I would say keep calisthenics as a main dish, really working on regressions/progressions that improve your mobility and make your body feel great. Maybe some back bridging, seated twisting and possibly hanging but in a progressive way with careful attention paid to existing injuries. Then treat your kettlebell lifting like an appetizer or something to sprinkle in. Practice the skill of kettlebell lifting maybe that's grease the groove or just doing low volume each week with great attention to form.

Just some ideas.
Click to expand...
There was a recent article from Elements’s Ryan about his own routine which includes KB TGUs and swings. (I respect his genuine approach since he does not currently have and he says will not have any KB program that he sells)

I was struggling to have a balance in between my KB skills work and my calisthenics/movement work. Then sometime ago, I came up with the following approach by the help of S&S book.

I see my KB skills efforts as my strength and conditioning efforts. I see my calisthenics/movement efforts as my “sports”. One can argue against this categorization however it did help me a lot to strike a good balance. Whenever a program, a person talks about their martial arts practice etc, I put my “elements/GMB movement programs” in to that category. And keep KB skills in my mind as S&C.

I hope this makes sense, in this way, my efforts are feeding each other in my mind but not competing. And just a tip, once you get familiar with “elements” to retain your skills does not require a lot and the program lets you select 15 minutes long sessions.

In my mind, this approach also fits well with some of Steve’s advices. One does not need to be strong in every single angle so one can pick up a few exercises and become strong in those exercise and hence become a strong person, but one should be able to move around in many ways.

And if you have “gaps” in yourself that you struggle to “fix” with some programs (they might be great programs but none of the programs can be everything for everyone if they want to fix some personal problems gaps”) Brett Jones mind the gap is an amazing program IMHO. It is a minimalist approach to address the gaps that you might have which your beloved minimalist program might not address directly.
 
I think strength work is very important for stability in the whole body. I’m also glad that I have been a chiropractic patient for close to 20 years. I go once a month for maintenance and has really paid dividends I think. I know not everyone believes in chiropractic but I know it has helped me a ton.
 
SPINAL ENGINE THEORY talked about by the Alexander Technique people, says that movement is generated from the spine, not the limbs. I have had back pain for many years. Swinging the Heavy Club or Clubbell has mostly fixed the problem because it involves twisting the spine, while standing, with weight.
 
jayjo said:
SPINAL ENGINE THEORY talked about by the Alexander Technique people, says that movement is generated from the spine, not the limbs. I have had back pain for many years. Swinging the Heavy Club or Clubbell has mostly fixed the problem because it involves twisting the spine, while standing, with weight.
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Do you use a specific program for club swinging or do you just use them as a movement prep?
 
I also have a history of back injuries - a botched attempt a barbell deadlift being the very first, then back spasms, and injuries while attempting bent-over row and even seated row.

Unfortunately I can't share the perfect path to bulletproof spine, healthy mobility, and pain-free strength and power.... as I've been searching for it myself.

What seems to be working well for me is medium to high volume KB training and isometrics (excluding any rowing). One reason is this kind of training tends to be with loads well below 1-rep max. When I hurt my back, it's always going for a new 1-rep max - so I extrapolate that I should avoid very high intensity effort for rowing or deadlifting.

i have no doubt Geoff Neupert - himself a multiple time back injury sufferer - is onto something with practicing OS Dead Bug to improve reflexive core stability. I can't really prove that it "works" but practicing while recovering from my latest back injury helped me regain the confidence that my spine wasn't going to slip out of place - which it kind of did when I got careless tying my shoes, putting socks on, etc.
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for back stuff specifically, i follow stuart mcgills work / advice. i had chronic back pain / discomfort for years - skating injury + poor posture - and now i don't. i used to do his big 3, which are bird dog, curl up without bending lumbar and side planks. you can create a lot of tension with those if you try

now i do ab wheel holds and two handed and one handed suitcase carries with same philosophy in mind

he also puts an emphasis on working out how to move so you stay out of your pain triggers

i didn’t benefit from stretching, my body likes stability for whatever reason

sorry know some of that isn’t on topic but he might be someone to look at as his principles can be applied to different modalities and goals

he also used the phrase ‘sufficient strength’ in a recent interview, which i thought was a nice phrase for people concerned with training for health
 
John Rhodes said:
There are a lot of quotes about “you’re as old as your spine/spine’s flexibility/etc.”. As we age we have to train our backs etc.

What do you think would happen to a yogi/gymnast that avoided kettlebell swings, deadlifts etc as they age?

If one searches the internet for back pain relief, it’s often some stretches or crawling exercises. Rarely do we hear, “you need to train the spine to make it strong..”.

So there are two camps as far as I’m concerned, the mobility/locomotor group and the weight training group. If someone was a weight training minimalist, what mobility/locomotion training would they need?

I am wrapping up Elements (movement program) and tested for Q&D to begin 12 weeks of it. Not training a pull for a while, I did 36kg one arm swings for 30s without a stop sign. Don’t want to run Q&D with my 40kg but maybe I should. I’m worried about getting imbalances or over training a motor pattern switching to a minimalist program, but want a strong back and all the other health benefits from KB training. Usually my shoulder hurts like hell from training the same press over and over again.

I also sacrifice strength in my posterior chain by sticking to calisthenics/Elements as well. So I’m just trying to think about how to get my body to agree with one or the other or to try a screw something up by “adding this here.” I have degenerative discs, arthritis in my hip, screws in my shoulders etc, so I gotta find something to kee my sanity and stay fit enough to be a good dad and worker. Any help is appreciated.
Click to expand...

Sensibly deadlifting is certainly good for systemic resilience as we age.

But I'm not going to go so far as to say gymnasts or yogis, that don't deadlift, who maintain their skills and training as they age are somehow doomed.

I've met 60-something ex gymnasts who can still do toes-to-bar, and 70-something yogis who can do a full wheel pose.

I'm not going to assert either of those cohorts inherently has pathological back health issues.
 
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