Old Forum Spondylolisthesis and Russian bear program

[SantaClause]

Hello,

 Little history, I have been dealing with random low back pain for many years, it has come and gone. But this spring it started being consistent, almost every night but I still could train as it wasn’t sharp pain, and it most often went away after morning.  

In the july though it got much worse, the pain got much sharper so I had to stop deadlifting and squatting as after a few light warmup sets the pain would start to increase.

Now after over a month of not squatting and deadlifting I started slowly front squatting and deadlifting again using Pavels 3-5 method and I haven’t felt that sharp pain yet, low back gets little sore though. Overall I feel it’s still getting little better.  

I visited doc and she said I could and should train when the pain goes away.               

So my questions would be: 

1. If somebody has trained with spondylolisthesis or trained others who have that, do you train differently somehow or can you train just like someone who don’t have it? I did even easier strength last year with no pain, deadlifting five times a week so I don’t think I should completely drop exercises? The goal is to get and stay pain free for a longer periods of time. 

2. About stretching; I have a desk job, so I sit a lot every day and I think this makes this worse. I’m really stiff and can’t touch ground/toes with hands standing straight. Is there some specific stretches that one should avoid and ones that should definitely be worth doing?   

I do original strength resets everyday and trifecta stretching routine from Convict conditioning 2 and while crawling and trifecta seem to help a little, the effect usually lasts hour or two. 

3. Any other tips for getting/staying pain free with this condition? Complete rest doesn’t work so I just can’t rest the pain away. 

4. My goal would be doing a powerlifting meet after months of consistent training and as I need more muscle and more strength I have been thinking about doing Russian bear routine benching twice a week and squatting and deadlifting once, using 5,3,2 instead of  5 reps 100% and 5 reps 90%. 

Any recommendations about deloading when planning to use this program for a longer period of time? Dropping the backoff sets every four weeks while increasing the weight for the top sets? Do a full cycle and rest a week after that?  

 Of course I would start this only when being 100% pain free.

 

[Steve Freides]

Niko, I think you should work with someone in person.  (Skype is also possible but IMHO it's a second choice.)

I have dealt with a lot of back issues; the devil is in the details.  You must learn about your own body to know what technical points you must focus on.  Because of your history, you will have to be more vigilant about some technical points more than others, and you will certainly need to become more flexible than what you describe as your current state because your strength and your flexibility work hand-in-hand to keep your back healthy and pain-free.

Since your doctor has cleared you to exercise when you're not in pain, the first job of any exercise program for you will be to not re-introduce pain into your life.  IMHO, thinking about a powerlifting program is premature.  Based on what you've said, I recommend you purchase Super Joints and Relax Into Stretch, read them both, then get some in-person coaching to be sure you're doing them correctly.   For strength training, stick to the fundamentals for now, e.g., perfectly your kettebell deadlift and goblet squat form because if you don't own those two, you are asking for trouble when you try to move quickly (swings) or heavy (powerlifting).  Stick with light, stick with slow, gradually load the pattern heavier and heavier, gradually increase the speed (faster kettlebell DL, then light swings and/or light barbell DL).  A high-volume, heavy program like the Russian Bear should only be attempted when you've gotten through the fundamentals and at least a few rounds of a less taxing routine without pain, and without pain is key here - your exericse should improve your condition, not worsen it.

If you want to post your location, perhaps we can find you someone in your area.

-S-

 

[SantaClause]

Thanks for your answer Steve.

I live in Finland and in april I was at one day barbell course held by the only Finnish sfg at the moment.  Got great technical insights on many lifts, great day.

I have been doing the simple and sinister warm up(not the program though) since it came out so almost a year of goblets each workout. The goblet squat and hip bridge combo felt great in the back.

Last week I started doing lighter deadlifts with 100kg( max double 165kg), bench pressing, chins, front squats and farmer walks using Pavels 3-5 method. Do you think it would be ok for replacing barbell deads for practising kettlebell deads like you mentioned but doing everything else IF they do not bother at all as I really like barbell lifts?

I will get relax in to stretch and super joints and study them. I still like OS resets so no reason to dump those?

 

[Steve Freides]

My point isn't what you do, it' show you do it.  If you are able to put your spine where it needs to be and keep in there throughout a heavy Deadlift, then those are fine.  Your original post indicates that you aren't able to do this, so you need to figure out what needs to change , be that change in your technique or your routine or both.

OS resets are great and they seem to be helping you so I'd keep them.

To put it another way, what I'm trying to tell you is that I can't adequately address your situation in an Internet forum and I'm not sure anyone can.  Try having a one-on-one session with the Finnish SFG.

-S-

 

[SantaClause]

I'll look into my kb deadlift technique and start practising that and get those Pavels books and only move toward barbell deads after I gain enough flexibility and confidence in the technique. And I may try having one on one sessions with him in the near future.

Thanks again Steve

 

[captainabearica]

I've never been diagnosed with anything simply because I don't want a chronic back problem on my medical record.

I suspect that I might have spondylolisthesis. I sqautted for awhile. My quads got tight and I developed lordosis pretty bad. I was squatting heavy one day and my back popped. Classic sciatica problems. gluteal amnesia on the right leg. couldn't bend over to tie my shoes for a week.

I found that I can deadlift, but squats kill me. The only squats I do are goblet squats with a 45lb plate. I think all it comes down to is lordosis. If I do goblets squats consistently my quads tighten up. Keeping a balance to where I can DL with a lumbar curve, but not so much that it causes pain.

I have done the bear successfully. When I finished I deadlifted 440x5 reps. I think that's decent for a sketchy back.

If you do the bear make sure to decompress your spine somehow. My back started getting cranky towards the end of my second cycle of the bear. I've seen some keyboard warriors debate about how inversion is bad because of leg length discrepancy. I don't care. I use gravity boots and that seems to be working for the moment. It's 80's and people think I'm weird, but I don't care.

I modified the bear a little bit. I did prone planks and stretched my hip flexors every day for 90 seconds a side before my workouts. It got to the point I couldn't dl with a lumbar curve so I added in 10 reps of goblet squats when the hams got tight. I just kind of seesaw back and forth between tight hams and tight quads.