Other/Mixed Sport-specific training

[IonRod]

There are so many members on this forum who practice a wide variety of sports. I thought this topic might be interesting for a seperate thread. It was inspired by below video.

How specific is your strength training to your sport? Or do you only do general strength, GPP stuff? Did you analyze your sport's strength requirements in a manner suggested in the video?

 

[wespom9]

I realize this is a very hotly debated topic, but I think that the "amount" of GPP necessary before sport-specific is not something that social media would have you believe. Obviously, SF seems to have standards for "strong enough", but the basics are not worked on long enough from my perspective.
I suppose what I'm saying is... I do 95% GPP not only myself, but for my high school baseball athletes as well.

 

[offwidth]

Amount and type of GPP are dependent upon specific sport or event in question to some extent...

 

[vegpedlr]

Amount and type of GPP are dependent upon specific sport or event in question to some extent...

And the circumstances each individual finds themself in. Everyone has their own gaps relative to their goals that need addressing.

 

[IonRod]

I realize this is a very hotly debated topic, but I think that the "amount" of GPP necessary before sport-specific is not something that social media would have you believe. Obviously, SF seems to have standards for "strong enough", but the basics are not worked on long enough from my perspective.
I suppose what I'm saying is... I do 95% GPP not only myself, but for my high school baseball athletes as well.

What kind of strength requirements do baseball athletes have? Do you find any correlation between an athlete's strength (however you choose to define it) and success on the field?
If not, do you program GPP simply for personal health?

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I don't really buy into GPP and SST differentiation. I think it is all SST. It is all in an effort to improve sport performance whatever that is, be it weightlifting, dadding, carpentering, etc. We assess the performance needs of the sport and then do the the things that create the highest performance making it all sport specific. Just because squats are done in pursuit of performance in multiple sports doesn't make them less specific to the performance pursuit of the sport.

 

[IonRod]

We assess the performance needs of the sport and then do the the things that create the highest performance making it all sport specific. Just because squats are done in pursuit of performance in multiple sports doesn't make them less specific to the performance pursuit of the sport.

Not everybody does that. Some people train very specific movements that mimic their sport, others do random stuff that has very little carryover to their sport. While there is no exact point where an exercise turns from GPP to sport-specific, there is however a range and the ones that are closest to the conditions of the competition get that label.

 

[wespom9]

What kind of strength requirements do baseball athletes have? Do you find any correlation between an athlete's strength (however you choose to define it) and success on the field?
If not, do you program GPP simply for personal health?

Basically, rotational power dominates. Speed, speed-endurance (maximum 270 ft to run hard at once). But I work with 15-18 year olds. These kids are far from needing to focus strictly on those things. Increase movement quality, ensure good co-ordination, improve strength in basic patterns is about as far as I go with them. They are all <2 years of training

 

[IonRod]

Basically, rotational power dominates. Speed, speed-endurance (maximum 270 ft to run hard at once). But I work with 15-18 year olds. These kids are far from needing to focus strictly on those things. Increase movement quality, ensure good co-ordination, improve strength in basic patterns is about as far as I go with them. They are all <2 years of training

Do you notice that those kids who are genetically more sensitive to strength training (i.e., they respond better and grow strength and muscle faster) are performing better in baseball?

 

[North Coast Miller]

Not everybody does that. Some people train very specific movements that mimic their sport, others do random stuff that has very little carryover to their sport. While there is no exact point where an exercise turns from GPP to sport-specific, there is however a range and the ones that are closest to the conditions of the competition get that label.

For myself I try to use movements/lifts that are more similar to my day to day bluecollar exertions. But...not many of the more common exercises fit this description.

I have definitely noticed a lot more carryover since adopting a more movement-pattern based exercise selection.

Anytime one is progressing in their lifts but not seeing an improvement in unprogrammed activities, good bet you've got the wrong exercises in the lineup, and is not just a need to do more of them or with more weight.

"your numbers in the gym don't mean anything" - well, they are an indication of overall progress - you're doing that part right, but it doesn't mean you're getting better at other activities.

 

[Anna C]

Anytime one is progressing in their lifts but not seeing an improvement in unprogrammed activities, good bet you've got the wrong exercises in the lineup, and is not just a need to do more of them or with more weight.

An interesting point to consider, but I'm not sure it's always true. As a 51-yr old female with a desk job (living in the USA in the state with the absolute highest rate of obesity and un-fitness, I might add), I can say that the number of times that life tests me to use my strength are relatively few and far between, unless I deliberately seek them out. I'm sure it would be different if I lived on a farm, or did construction, or was a competitive athlete.

On the other hand, on the rare occasion that I have to do an unplanned hard physical task, I find that I'm much more capable than I once was. That of course is a good feeling. And then I'm more likely to take on other tasks or challenges. So, what if I had stopped training with heavier weights earlier because I "wasn't seeing an improvement in unprogrammed activities"? I would never really know what strength or other capabilities I am capable of developing.

I think using the strength, endurance, or other qualities that one builds in training for other things in life is key to rounding things out and discovering what is transferrable and useful. And in a case like mine where there's just not that much occasion to use the capability outside of training, switching training methods can be good for this too. StrongFirst's triad of kettlebell, barbell, and bodyweight provides plenty of opportunity for it. I'm heading into a couple of months of bodyweight and kettlebell snatch training, after over a year of almost exclusively barbell, and it's fun to discover what it has brought me.

 

[North Coast Miller]

...I can say that the number of times that life tests me to use my strength are relatively few and far between, unless I deliberately seek them out. I'm sure it would be different if I lived on a farm, or did construction, or was a competitive athlete.

...So, what if I had stopped training with heavier weights earlier because I "wasn't seeing an improvement in unprogrammed activities"? I would never really know what strength or other capabilities I am capable of developing.

...StrongFirst's triad of kettlebell, barbell, and bodyweight provides plenty of opportunity for it. I'm heading into a couple of months of bodyweight and kettlebell snatch training, after over a year of almost exclusively barbell, and it's fun to discover what it has brought me.

I think you're missing the point in this context. If you aren't ever testing against anything but the lifts/activities you use for training (or very similar), then you're getting nearly 100% strength transfer. You're already doing what will work best. The more dissimilar your effort is to how you train, the greater the surplus of strength you will need.

So I'm not suggesting to not train with heavy weights etc, I am saying use a suite of exercises that more closely approximates your test or most common uses and lift them heavy so you operate with less slop - a better ratio of usable strength to surplus. Really aside from lifting sports or personal satisfaction, the weights one can lift in the gym are not meaningful except as a rough measure of how well your basic methods are working - I don't think that's a controversial statement.

This is where you have to be honest with yourself about why you train and whether it helps where it needs to. I get tested infrequently but solidly where I work, and many of these activities I've been doing for a number of years, so I know what sort of carryover I get or not. If I wasn't tested like this, I'd just compare to my lifts at 100% transfer or nearly so, and everything makes sense.

When you do some other activity and realize adding 30% to your working loads hasn't made your life one iota easier, you can either accept that with a shrug, assume you need to increase loading even more or change things around so you get better payoff for your effort. I'm pursuing the latter, not just because as I age it is more difficult to increase surplus, but also to make my training time as effective as possible.

 

[wespom9]

Do you notice that those kids who are genetically more sensitive to strength training (i.e., they respond better and grow strength and muscle faster) are performing better in baseball?

I think there are too many variables to this to know for sure. Not to denigrate myself, but with 75% of my kids completely new to strength training and hitting/in the biggest growth spurt they will ever experience, I could throw s*** at the wall and have success. For many, the growth spurt is a time where co-ordination decreases for a while before improving again once they grow into their body

This is another reason I mostly stick to GPP... once their training age improves and growth spurt slows, we will have a very good foundation set for more complex training variables

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I fully understand the textbook concept of GPP and SST and that the closer something resembles an actual sporting movement to be the SST and the building blocks to those to be considered GPP. Regardless, after some philosophical debating in my mind, I now default to, if it contributes to making you better at whatever sport, it's sport specific. If it doesn't, then it's pointless. If something isn't helping, than it's hurting, if for no other reason than competing for our time.

 

[IonRod]

"your numbers in the gym don't mean anything" - well, they are an indication of overall progress - you're doing that part right, but it doesn't mean you're getting better at other activities.

I think Dan John said something to the effect, that he could build the strongest football team in the gym, but it doesn't mean they would be any good on the field.

 

[IonRod]

I think there are too many variables to this to know for sure. Not to denigrate myself, but with 75% of my kids completely new to strength training and hitting/in the biggest growth spurt they will ever experience, I could throw s*** at the wall and have success. For many, the growth spurt is a time where co-ordination decreases for a while before improving again once they grow into their body

This is another reason I mostly stick to GPP... once their training age improves and growth spurt slows, we will have a very good foundation set for more complex training variables

That's interesting, I never thought about the way growth spurts effect coordination. I jumped from being an average height to the tallest kid in class in a span of about a year or two and I do remember how clumsy I was... ah, who am I kidding, I am still clumsy.

 

[Anna C]

When you do some other activity and realize adding 30% to your working loads hasn't made your life one iota easier, you can either accept that with a shrug, assume you need to increase loading even more or change things around so you get better payoff for your effort. I'm pursuing the latter, not just because as I age it is more difficult to increase surplus, but also to make my training time as effective as possible.

Good points, and I agree with most of what you're saying. I do think there is also some magic payoff that I think of in the context of the movie quote, "If you build it, they will come." If I build a strong and capable body, I can take on a task or sport or adventure that I never would have thought possible before. Build a capability, then find a use for it. Maybe that what you mean by "change things around so you get better payoff for your effort".

 

[offwidth]

Who doesn't want to get better at their chosen sport (if they have one). Both GPP and SST come into play here. But what also comes into play is how serious your participation is and what level of play is needed. My belief is that the closer one gets to 'pro' level, or engaging in life and death sports the more SST is needed and becomes blended at some level with GPP. So I am more or less aligned with much of what @Bro Mo was talking about.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

Build a capability, then find a use for it.

This is the only description of the GPP concept that makes real theoretical sense to me. Once that use is found, BAM!!, it becomes SST.

 

[vegpedlr]

The way I approach this issue is by questioning what I should do when there is more training time available than sport specific time, i.e. logistical issues, seasonality, etc. For instance, my primary sports have almost always been outdoor sports, surfing, skiing, and MTB. So now is seasonal, and most skiers live far from the hill. Surf is also somewhat seasonal, but flat spells occur all through the year. Even MTB hibernates in the winter depending on local trail conditions. For devotees of these sports, maybe you can only practice a couple times week on average, or only for a couple months of the year.

What to do with available training time away for the main sport? How can GPP pay off the most for when you do get to go play outside?

That’s been my training koan 30 years.