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Barbell Squats: Width, Back or Down, Hi/Lo Bar

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John K

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Certified Instructor
Past few months I've read a couple interesting articles on squats. I thought some of you might enjoy them. I've shared some of my thoughts to go with the articles, but please understand that they are MY thoughts, not Greg's. I've also tried to be neutral with the article titles to prevent any misunderstanding of the article before reading it. The third article is my favorite, followed by the second. The first is kind of short fluff, but still interesting.

Squat Width and Knee Dominance
-I don't really have much to say with this one, other than ... Your knees are used. A lot. It mostly served to reinforce the idea (in my head) that changes in stance and style minimally change how the muscles used.

Sitting Back vs. Sitting Down
- This changes how it looks but doesn't seem to change how muscle activates
- My question is I'm very fuzzy on how well 'muscle activation' relates to much. For instance, the glute bridge has high muscle activation, but it doesn't necessarily work the glutes "better" as it puts them in a mechanically advantaged position... so as an activation drill - cool; as a strength/muscle building exercise it seems like you'd need much higher loads to generate similar stimulus.
- However, something I thought was interesting was that the hamstrings had higher activation in the sitting down group, not the sitting back group. Contrast this with Starting Strength that talks about sitting back to parallel being better because it maximally stretches the hammies, where down/below parallel doesn't.

High Bar vs. Low Bar
- More weight in low bar likely just represents a change in back strength requirements, not taxing the legs differently. Less weight in high bar and front squats is due to more back strength needed.
- I wonder if this is why Double Kettlebell Front Squats feel so hard relative to front squats or back squats - the load is further in front, representing a greater challenge to the back, despite relatively low loads. When my DBKBFS fails, it is always the back, never the legs. Maybe my back is just weak...
- He is impressed with weightlifters ability to squat, despite being in a weaker position, and attributes it to greater back strength due to the massive amount of back work involved in weightlifting, particularly strength for thoracic extension. Low bar for WL is silly - Low Bar allows greater weights due to less demands on the back and a higher depth (more bounce), neither of which helps a WLer.
- He talks about how both Blaine and Chad are trying to get upright as fast as possible, which kind of sounds contrary to what Starting Strength teaches (don't try and get upright, drives your hips up), which he thinks would limit your weight due to back strength or maybe hip strength.
- I really liked this article, despite all the numbers, and learned a lot.

In general the theme is to do what feels best and allows you to squat well. It seems that he comes to the conclusion - it doesn't matter how you squat, just squat. (I guess it does matter how ... I've seen some horrible squats ... hear what I'm saying.)
 
I've found cyclist wedge squats (either front or high bar) to be a way around the back strength limiting nature of front squats and high bar.

The squat wedge allows you to dramatically reduce the weight, while still hammering the quads as much as you like without upper back strength / fatigue being the limiting factor.
 
@John K, when your double KB FSQ fails, it's often an anterior, not posterior, thing - you have to stay really tight and rigid to the front. Try gripping the bells harder when you feel you're getting near the end, and/or get an extra breath or two in and really stay tight. If not an anterior thing, then call it a core thing.

As far as barbell squats go, I have taken to working on barbell front squats in Olympic shoes as an off-cycle thing, and I do them quick down, bounce out of the bottom, the focus is on up and down, not back. Then when it comes to preparing for a meet, I go for low bar back squats, and I don't do much with high bar back squats.

Another wrinkle I've used in training that I've enjoyed is FSQ until the weight starts to get too heavy, then switch to HBBSQ until that starts to get too heavy, then switch to LBBSQ and work up to a heavy set and you're done for the day. For these, I use whatever shoe I'm going to compete in for all three.

They're all fine movements - just depends on what you're trying to accomplish, and if that's nothing particular, then I recommend working on at least two barbell variations.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
 
@John K, when your double KB FSQ fails, it's often an anterior, not posterior, thing - you have to stay really tight and rigid to the front. Try gripping the bells harder when you feel you're getting near the end, and/or get an extra breath or two in and really stay tight. If not an anterior thing, then call it a core thing.

As far as barbell squats go, I have taken to working on barbell front squats in Olympic shoes as an off-cycle thing, and I do them quick down, bounce out of the bottom, the focus is on up and down, not back. Then when it comes to preparing for a meet, I go for low bar back squats, and I don't do much with high bar back squats.

Another wrinkle I've used in training that I've enjoyed is FSQ until the weight starts to get too heavy, then switch to HBBSQ until that starts to get too heavy, then switch to LBBSQ and work up to a heavy set and you're done for the day. For these, I use whatever shoe I'm going to compete in for all three.

They're all fine movements - just depends on what you're trying to accomplish, and if that's nothing particular, then I recommend working on at least two barbell variations.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
Hmm I'll have to pay more attention next time I fail DBKBFS. Usually when I fail a rep (or technically fail - I don't do them until I drop the bells usually!) it is forward, and usually the next couple days my abs are very sore.
 
Hmm I'll have to pay more attention next time I fail DBKBFS. Usually when I fail a rep (or technically fail - I don't do them until I drop the bells usually!) it is forward, and usually the next couple days my abs are very sore.

Can one even fail a DKB FSQ backwards??

Like roll backwards onto your back while still holding bells??

I'd have to like intentionally do that. ;)
 
My friend and I lift recreationally. He gets hip pain if he "sits down" and I get hip pain if I "sit back." It's possible one of these is objectively better from a competitive standpoint (maximum weight lifted within the competition rules), but as recreational lifters I think we're free to just get strong in whatever technique feels good. In other words, I just like to see that I make progress in some technique -- optimality for a competition is secondary (and usually not the dominant term I suspect!). If I were competing, maybe I would trade some hip pain for a win.
 
If I were competing, maybe I would trade some hip pain for a win.
Likely not. Pain like that rarely will contribute to competitive success - or if it does you have a very short career.

Otherwise, yes, find a way of squatting that works and kill it. That's mostly what Greg said repeatedly throughout all the articles, he was just also addressing commonly said "stuff."
 
I use different squat styles for different purposes.

I have about 5 types of bilateral barbell squats (front squat, high bar, overhead, cyclist, sumo squat) that I rotate through regularly, and I'll typically do 3 different ones in any given week.
 
I'm not bothering to read the articles - I've read some of Greg's stuff and though I think he's very smart and most of the stuff he writes is fair, he's young and trust me, that matters.

Sit back vs. Sit down - if you squat high bar, you should sit down, If you sit back, you should low bar squat unless you have a very short torso.
I made this video forever ago on the subject:


As far as different squatting bar placements/stances/implements - I've tried most and spent years with many of them. We can talk about muscle activation, relative merits/demerits, etc of various kinds, but a lot of it imho does come down to mastery and body structure/leverages. Small adjustments of leverages/stance/posture/hip positioning can make a big difference even w. similar bar placement. If someone more cerebral than myself would take body measurements and measure torque and activation and then conduct some longitudinal studies of how mastery of different bar placements/stances/depth affected, we'd have something useful.
 
I'm not bothering to read the articles - I've read some of Greg's stuff and though I think he's very smart and most of the stuff he writes is fair, he's young and trust me, that matters.

Sit back vs. Sit down - if you squat high bar, you should sit down, If you sit back, you should low bar squat unless you have a very short torso.
I made this video forever ago on the subject:


As far as different squatting bar placements/stances/implements - I've tried most and spent years with many of them. We can talk about muscle activation, relative merits/demerits, etc of various kinds, but a lot of it imho does come down to mastery and body structure/leverages. Small adjustments of leverages/stance/posture/hip positioning can make a big difference even w. similar bar placement. If someone more cerebral than myself would take body measurements and measure torque and activation and then conduct some longitudinal studies of how mastery of different bar placements/stances/depth affected, we'd have something useful.


Dang, that is one squeaky rack!

Or was it a nasty bar in need of some oil on the bearings?
 
If someone more cerebral than myself would take body measurements and measure torque and activation and then conduct some longitudinal studies of how mastery of different bar placements/stances/depth affected, we'd have something useful.

I think Bret Contreras did somewhat close in one of this big pan-exercise glute activation studies using EMG -- but I believe other muscles (quads, hams) were included, too.

I believe it compared all the major squat types, barbell hip thrusts, and others.....I'll see if I can dig it up on the interwebs.

EDIT:

And here we go, big honking table in the middle under "The Exercises":

 
Dang, that is one squeaky rack!

Or was it a nasty bar in need of some oil on the bearings?
Bearings... lol! Back in the day there wasn't a bearing to be found in that gym. The high school has since upgraded and now has equipment way better than what was available to most D1 athletes of the 80s and 90s.

It's a cheapo power rack - squeaky, but it did the job.
 
Bearings... lol! Back in the day there wasn't a bearing to be found in that gym. The high school has since upgraded and now has equipment way better than what was available to most D1 athletes of the 80s and 90s.

It's a cheapo power rack - squeaky, but it did the job.

Oh, the video is that old?

Yeah....I didn't personally handle a barbell with a bearing in it outside of D1 or weightlifting barbell clubs until.....the late 2008-2009/ early 2010's when I finally ran across them in a Silicon Valley YMCA?
 
Oh, the video is that old?

Yeah....I didn't personally handle a barbell with a bearing in it outside of D1 or weightlifting barbell clubs until.....the late 2008-2009/ early 2010's when I finally ran across them in a Silicon Valley YMCA?
I had to look it up ---> video uploaded in August, 2008. Wow, that just made me feel friggin old...

Not to be all "back in my day we walked to school uphill both ways" about it, but you can find (low end) Eleiko barbells at gen pop gyms nowadays. Seriously what's available to most gym goers today is amazing.
 
I had to look it up ---> video uploaded in August, 2008. Wow, that just made me feel friggin old...

Not to be all "back in my day we walked to school uphill both ways" about it, but you can find (low end) Eleiko barbells at gen pop gyms nowadays. Seriously what's available to most gym goers today is amazing.

And squat racks in gen pop gyms.

Through my teen and college years, I never saw squat racks in regular globo gyms.
 
And squat racks in gen pop gyms.

Through my teen and college years, I never saw squat racks in regular globo gyms.
Most (but certainly not all) of the gyms I grew up w. had one or two squat/power racks. Today, it's not uncommon to see a half dozen or more and that's amazing to me. They all had a Universal, and they all had benches. Platforms were almost non-existent and now they're commonplace.
 
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