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Kettlebell Strongfirst standards and age

conor78 said:
I was having a discussion with a friend who has been bitten by the cycling bug. At 44 he was optimistic that he could still make improvements and found it hard to accept they over time his performance will likely be impacted by age.
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I started cycling seriously at age 40 and improved quite a lot through my late 40s. Since then I've held steady or declined a bit, but I think that's purely because I don't emphasize it as much. I put cycling in maintenance mode while I pursued strength objectives. My other cycling friends who have continued to put cycling first have certainly stayed as good or gotten better, into their 60s and beyond. Minus something like sprinting, but just general cycling performance, age is really hardly a limiter!

Strength is a different story. And throw power in the mix (strength + speed, and/or rate of force development), and it drops off even further with age. Doesn't mean you can't improve at what you do, but certainly you have less potential at age 40, 50, 60... Just look at IWF Masters Weightlifting records and you'll see that clearly.

Simple, Sinister, Snatch test, etc... that's a mixed bag. More nuanced. But I think it's less limited by age than something like weightlifting.

I think Dr. Andy Galpin touched on this in the latest podcast with Huberman. Different domains of fitness are affected differently by age.

 
Anna C said:
Strength is a different story. And throw power in the mix (strength + speed, and/or rate of force development), and it drops off even further with age. Doesn't mean you can't improve at what you do, but certainly you have less potential at age 40, 50, 60... Just look at IWF Masters Weightlifting records and you'll see that clearly.
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Sometimes I feel like the decline in power is as much a neurological / CNS phenom as opposed to something happening at the fiber level.

Like a general slowing of reaction time, that also translates to power / ability to recruit lots of fibers quickly.
 
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watchnerd said:
Sometimes I feel like the decline in power with is as much a neurological / CNS phenom as opposed to something happening at the fiber level.

Like a general slowing of reaction time, that also translates to power / ability to recruit lots of fibers quickly.
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As we age, if power declines before strength and endurance would you recommend a focus on power training for the ageing athlete?
 
watchnerd said:
Well, do you mean 'athlete' in the real sense, i.e. you compete in a sport?

If so, you should compete in the sports you enjoy, regardless of what aging does to your performance.

And do whatever training aligns with that sport.
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I meant ‘athlete’ in its broadest sense. Not competing, just trying to age well.
 
paules said:
I meant ‘athlete’ in its broadest sense. Not competing, just trying to age well.
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I don't think I'm qualified to answer from an aging and healthspan point of view.

I know some people think so and advocate for it, but I haven't seen any actual scientific studies done on power training in the aged and what impact it has when compared to general resistance training.
 
watchnerd said:
I haven't seen any actual scientific studies done on power training in the aged and what impact it has when compared to general resistance training.
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At my last weightlifting meet, there were almost 1,000 masters weightlifting competitors from all over the world which were theoretically a selection of the best in each age group since it was the IWF Masters World Championships. A research group was conducting studies on those who chose to participate, which was I believe close to 300. They are starting to share some of the results now to our forum group. I'll certainly share the published results when they're out.

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paules said:
As we age, if power declines before strength and endurance would you recommend a focus on power training for the ageing athlete?
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As I understand it, the recommendation is to ensure that you do some resistance training that activates high threshold motor units for fast twitch muscle fiber. There are two ways to do this: Heavy, and Fast. Pick at least one. Also, within Heavy, there are two ways to do this - either shorts sets with high RPE (heavy for you), or longer sets closer to muscle failure (for example, Nautilus sets of 10-15 where the last reps are very hard. Obviously you don't normally want to go this route with something like a barbell overhead press).

So the "train for power" would be somewhat heavy, and fast. This is a good way, but a bit more challenging to incorporate. So yes it's a good way, but it's not the only way.

"Train for strength" is good for general health. If you do compound movements like barbell squat, press, deadlift, you get a lot more benefits such as balance and mobility as compared with weight machines. I would say you get the benefits for aging that way.

And if you don't do either of those focuses, weight machines will still give you the direct muscle benefits for aging, and will somewhat build or maintain strength, as well. Just not as functional, or comprehensive, in my view.
 
Anna C said:
At my last weightlifting meet, there were almost 1,000 masters weightlifting competitors from all over the world which were theoretically a selection of the best in each age group since it was the IWF Masters World Championships. A research group was conducting studies on those who chose to participate, which was I believe close to 300. They are starting to share some of the results now to our forum group. I'll certainly share the published results when they're out.

View attachment 20404
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Interesting.

What was the control group?

Or perhaps they didn't tell you guys....
 
paules said:
As we age, if power declines before strength and endurance would you recommend a focus on power training for the ageing athlete?
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Yes Yes Yes. my god yes. Please. Tripping and falling is a huge risk. To be able to move fast and catch yourself you gotta move fast.
Something as simple as high knee skips. Mike Boyle talks alot about this with adults and power - something simple, not high force pounding, etc.
Med ball slams are something fairly low risk and adaptable.
 
watchnerd said:
Interesting.

What was the control group?

Or perhaps they didn't tell you guys....
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I think the control group was aerobic athletes (Masters triathletes), from what one of the student researchers was telling me. But the consent info that I captured doesn't say. I imagine once they get the results published it will clarify.

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Anna C said:
I think Dr. Andy Galpin touched on this in the latest podcast with Huberman. Different domains of fitness are affected differently by age.
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Actually, I was listening this morning... It may also be in the Huberman podcast, but it's definitely in this episode of Dr. Peter Attia's The Drive podcast. Some quotes from Dr. Galpin (time placed link to video version):

"One of the things that you'll see very specifically with aging is a loss of physical function. And that's more geared for power; in fact, the rate of loss of muscle mass as you age is something like .5-1%/year. The loss of muscle strength is double to triple that. Loss of muscle power is triple THAT. ... You see a very precipitous drop in muscle power. ... You can look at the world records for all sports across age groups. ... Strength sports like powerlifting, the world records through age doesn't go down that much. The world record in speed and jumping sports just falls off a cliff. ... You see very little loss of function in slow twitch fibers through aging, regardless of exercise or not. But you see a dramatic reduction in fast twitch fibers. And you actually don't see a drop of power; so there's nothing internal to the muscle fiber that's going down. ... It's the fiber size. The atrophy of fast twitch fiber is almost exclusively the problem with aging and muscle. You have got to maintain fast twitch fiber size. Now there are some loss of total fibers, but that is hard to find scientifically (counting fibers in human muscles is extraordinarily difficult). Really for longevity, primarily absolute force and power has to be preserved, and this is a fast twitch fiber atrophy issue."
 
Anna C said:
There's a bit here about isometrics, too... @North Coast Miller

Here's a link to that part.
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Good stuff, yeah train at long muscle length. They don’t go into speed of initiation, which IMHO is a big reason to use isometrics.
But the rest of the conversation re ease of using good form etc are things anyone with training experience who digs into em will notice very quickly. Am considering a pamphlet aimed at elderly newbies, as that is the demographic that could be the best fit for a comprehensive iso program.
 
paules said:
How much does training history play a role?

I have been active my whole life but only started strength training at 50 (now 55). Still making newbie gains but I am not moving anywhere near the weight of some folks around here in my demographic who have been strength training for much longer.

So my question is, as a late starter, what can I expect in five years when I hit 60 and beyond?
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There are too many factors involved to answer your questions specifically such as current health, training, recovery etc. However, the latest research seems to indicate that much more progress is possible than was previously thought but it gets harder and harder, so the next five years is particularly important to you. At a certain point, maintaining is gaining as Charles Staley said.

The commonly cited muscle loss rate of 1-2 percent per year after 35 does not appear to be linear, unfortunately.

"Sarcopenia—defined as age-related muscle loss—can begin at around age 35 and occurs at a rate of 1-2 percent a year for the typical person. After age 60, it can accelerate to 3 percent a year."
www.health.harvard.edu

Age and muscle loss - Harvard Health

As the years pass, muscle mass in the body generally shrinks, and strength and power decline. The process begins earlier than you might think....
www.health.harvard.edu www.health.harvard.edu

When I hit 60 in less than a decade, I think I will get statistics on my "biological age" Biological age--what is it and can it be measured? - PubMed which consists of 16 biomarkers, and age group rather than what I could formerly lift as my benchmark. I think that will be more motivating and actually relevant. In other words, compared to men my age, how much fitter am I and then concentrate on increasing that rather than bemoaning the fact that I can't lift what I used to be able to. However, I am also a late starter in my early forties for barbell and KB, and still making progress.

In short, how much better you are going to get is not that important since we know that if you don't train you will get a lot worse! You can't go wrong by continuing to train as long as you are healthy enough, your healthspan as opposed to your lifespan.

Check out a post from @Steve Freides who has made some great progress in his sixties in powerlifting if you want motivation.
 
guardian7 said:
There are too many factors involved to answer your questions specifically such as current health, training, recovery etc. However, the latest research seems to indicate that much more progress is possible than was previously thought but it gets harder and harder, so the next five years is particularly important to you. At a certain point, maintaining is gaining as Charles Staley said.

The commonly cited muscle loss rate of 1-2 percent per year after 35 does not appear to be linear, unfortunately.

"Sarcopenia—defined as age-related muscle loss—can begin at around age 35 and occurs at a rate of 1-2 percent a year for the typical person. After age 60, it can accelerate to 3 percent a year."
www.health.harvard.edu

Age and muscle loss - Harvard Health

As the years pass, muscle mass in the body generally shrinks, and strength and power decline. The process begins earlier than you might think....
www.health.harvard.edu www.health.harvard.edu

When I hit 60 in less than a decade, I think I will get statistics on my "biological age" Biological age--what is it and can it be measured? - PubMed which consists of 16 biomarkers, and age group rather than what I could formerly lift as my benchmark. I think that will be more motivating and actually relevant. In other words, compared to men my age, how much fitter am I and then concentrate on increasing that rather than bemoaning the fact that I can't lift what I used to be able to. However, I am also a late starter in my early forties for barbell and KB, and still making progress.

In short, how much better you are going to get is not that important since we know that if you don't train you will get a lot worse! You can't go wrong by continuing to train as long as you are healthy enough, your healthspan as opposed to your lifespan.

Check out a post from @Steve Freides who has made some great progress in his sixties in powerlifting if you want motivation.
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Great response, thank you!

I am still making progress and getting stronger albeit from a low base. Hopefully that progress can continue for a few more years yet. After that, will be happy to maintain.

I reflect often upon my grandad, who lived until his mid-nineties and was healthy up to his last days. A former building worker he continued to do all of his home maintenance, including roof repairs, into his late 80s. Rode his bike and walked every day. Would be very happy to emulate him.
 
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