all posts post new thread

Other/Mixed Swings and Crawls - The 'true' program minimum?

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
bluejeff said:
Where I bolded and starred, I'm assuming you mean "crawls?"

Not trying to be nit-picky, just trying to clarify.


One of the great things about crawling is actually how versatile you can be with it. It only "doesn't provide spinal mobility qualities" if you keep your torso stiff. You can add a degree of lateral spinal flexion to it as you move forwards or backwards, and this actually mimics what should happen in the gait cycle. In crawling, the spine will flex towards the side of the arm that is planted as the other reaches forward. It also undergoes a degree of rotation during the gait cycle. A more global degree of mobility can be worked by advancing the degree of motion the body undergoes while crawling.

Since OS is popular around here, other, more advanced crawling variations don't get as much attention. A word about them, though: they are somewhat analogous to different size bells in the TGU. Baby and leopard crawls are very easy to do a high volume of, and are quite accessible, so the most people will be using them. If you are looking for your crawling to translate to pressing, for example, they may help, as the torso stays mostly "straight," mimicking what the shoulders and "core" do in a press. However, there are other variations that may also assist the press (see below).

Baby crawling is the easiest, most accessible form of crawling. If need be, it can be regressed to rocking variations. Then you'd do leopard, then "spider man," THEN I would work in incline/decline crawling and crawling with pushups integrated. At the high end of crawling difficulty, I would place low lizard crawls and incline/decline lizard crawls.

So a rough "progression" could be:
-Baby crawls
-Leopard Crawls
-Spiderman crawls, loaded crawling, straight arm lizard crawls
-Incline/decline crawls, crawls w/pushups
-low lizard crawls
-incline/decline crawls

So all this is just to say that if one gets proficient at leopard crawling, they can probably introduce more complexity to it to reap further, wider ranging rewards. They don't have to though. They can load crawls instead, if it suits them better.

Referencing the video below:
Just to repeat it, since this kind of stuff (imo) unfairly gets bashed.... this is NOT where one starts!!!! This is after all the other stuff. If the baby crawl is a 12-16kg bell in the TGU, then incline/decline lizard crawls are like using the beast for TGU.

What I find interesting is that we know that training a muscle at longer lengths can increase strength throughout the full ROM. So what happens if you are also teaching the muscles to coordinate and manage your center of mass under load, at longer lengths? Check out the depth experienced in the shoulder girdle! Also, here's your comination of dynamic core stability (stability NOT meaning "stiffness"), pressing strength, spinal and hip mobility .... all in one move.


Link to video of lizard crawls on stairs:
fb.watch

Stairs can be a great tool for movement development with their jagged edges, incremental ascent/descent and dealing with incline and decline. I use many... | By Ido Portal | Facebook

Stairs can be a great tool for movement development with their jagged edges, incremental ascent/descent and dealing with incline and decline. I use many...
fb.watch fb.watch
Click to expand...
lol thank you for making me coherent! Yes, those were supposed to be "crawls".

That's really interesting regarding lateral motions in the crawl. I've been treating them like bird dogs and not allowing myself any sway whatsoever. I'm going to have to try swaying and see what it feels like.

That crawl progression is perfect! I searched for a long time looking for a good progression and that beats everything I found.

That video is bananas. Dear god.
 
JR47 said:
This is super helpful. But what does 'EDT' mean?
Click to expand...
EDT means escalating density training. It's such a brilliant training concept (as long as you form is good -- and it's hard to screw up crawling form lol). Basically pick some exercises and a time period (i.e. 32kb KB presses and pull-ups in 30 minutes) and do as many perfect reps as you can in that time, alternating between the lifts. Next time, get more reps. It's as simple as that.

It's a lot of fun, tbh. it's like a game where you compete against yourself and strategize the best way to beat your previous numbers.
 
3letterslong said:
EDT means escalating density training. It's such a brilliant training concept (as long as you form is good -- and it's hard to screw up crawling form lol). Basically pick some exercises and a time period (i.e. 32kb KB presses and pull-ups in 30 minutes) and do as many perfect reps as you can in that time, alternating between the lifts. Next time, get more reps. It's as simple as that.

It's a lot of fun, tbh. it's like a game where you compete against yourself and strategize the best way to beat your previous numbers.
Click to expand...
This is the first time I've heard the term. It sounds like a good training concept. So, applied to swings and crawls, you just pick a time block, then count reps of swings and crawls the end, correct?
 
JR47 said:
This is the first time I've heard the term. It sounds like a good training concept. So, applied to swings and crawls, you just pick a time block, then count reps of swings and crawls the end, correct?
Click to expand...
Correct! Let me know what you think after you try it, I'd love to hear your reaction to it. I think it's one of the best conditioning tools there is because it also builds strength and mass. That's a rare combination.
 
3letterslong said:
Correct! Let me know what you think after you try it, I'd love to hear your reaction to it. I think it's one of the best conditioning tools there is because it also builds strength and mass. That's a rare combination.
Click to expand...
Sounds as if it also builds an awareness of, and skill in personal programming. I really like this idea, and the Swing / Crawl combination. Will definitely try. Thanks so much for the info.
 
I tried doing the sprint routine described in Q&D with lizard-ish crawls. I think it has merit, but I tried it too soon in my crawling career and injured myself. I will probably try it again down the road.

Crawl, snatch, and ruck is a pretty nifty package.
 
rwleonard said:
I tried doing the sprint routine described in Q&D with lizard-ish crawls. I think it has merit, but I tried it too soon in my crawling career and injured myself. I will probably try it again down the road.

Crawl, snatch, and ruck is a pretty nifty package.
Click to expand...
Since I’m the one who posted about all the advanced crawling variations in the first place… I feel the need to reiterate:

As you discovered, trying the low lizard crawl when you haven’t conditioned the body to be prepared for it will probably lead to unwanted results :). That’s why I likened them to doing TGU with a heavy bell. I think working towards it and being able to perform it can have a lot of benefit. I can do them for 4-6 steps but if I do them too often I feel the effects. Somewhere I saw someone wrote about them saying that you should be able to do them with nasal breathing and without gritting your teeth (look how chill Ido looks in the video I posted) I’d say that’s a great way to approach progressing crawls in general.

Set a goal, be it number of steps, distance, time, etc and gradually work towards being able to do it with nasal breathing and relaxed face and neck. Then progress, and repeat. As with things like advanced calisthenics and gymnastic strength training skills, it’s best to really own a movement before moving on. That is, it should feel kind of easy. At least that’s my opinion. Hope it helps anyone who tries it out.
 
Hello,

Nasal breathing is a staple of how I train. It just has changed the way I practice and there are tons of benefits in it, but this could be a dedicated thread. Actually, it makes my entire practice (crawling including) way more sustainable.

I daily practice a few crawling patterns: regular crawl, reverse regular crawl (the same thing but your face is looking at the ceiling) duck walk and lizard crawl. A dozen step of each, forward and backward. Like @bluejeff mentioned, the lizard version is more challenging but once you get it, you reap plenty of benefit from it. Among them:
- posture, core and upper body alignment are more taxed than with the regular crawl, coordination
- one can add a "press" here to get some sort of cameleon walk.
- it will have a direct transfer to a regular "military dragging"

It can be done as a warm up, as a cool down, as a conditioning drill or as a mobility drill. It is very versatile. Depending on how one want to use it, pace, distance / time will vary.

As a boxer, it drastically helps to be comfortable in "weird" angles.

As far as transfer to kb training, once again, I agree with @bluejeff Doing a few steps, everyday, paired with some single limb move (pistol / lunge, oap) maintains the ability to do relatively heavy get up (at least up to 1/2bdw) while getting conditioning in the meantime.

I have never based my routine on crawling only, but there is thread which talks about this and it seems to work pretty well.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
JR47 said:
On a recent thread (about OS resets) I saw swings + crawls suggested as the true program minimum and this idea captured my imagination.

I'm thinking long sets of A+A swings, then crawling for time, but am open to suggestions.

Has anyone tried this? If so, what was your programming / results?

And, even if you haven't tried this, do you have any ideas / suggestions on best programming?

(Outcome would be: highest level GPP + overall health and longevity.)

All genuine replies welcome.
Click to expand...

Highest level of GPP from crawling??

I think we must have very different definitions of GPP.
 
JR47 said:
Mine was a genuine enquiry. But I didn't find your answer constructive in any way. It just made me feel kind of stupid and bad for reaching out.
Click to expand...

Well, let's unpack GPP a little bit and how we could connect it to longevity.

First of all, it's contextual, as it is a prelude to SPP (specific physical preparedness), i.e. GPP is general "physical fitness" for whatever specialized training one is about to do.

General physical preparedness - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

GPP is also not something you do in perpetuity. It's an 'off season' activity to prepare you for the more targeted (and usually harder) later training to reach your objective.

Your stated objective is: "overall health and longevity".

When it comes to reducing all cause mortality and increasing health-span, the typical areas discussed are:

1. Maintaining reasonable body fat
2. Cardiovascular health
3. Musculoskeletal health & strength
4. Stability, mobility, and balance.

So if we then say our SPP is to create a training plan to improve these qualities, one could end up with a program consisting of:

1. Diet and nutrition
2. Zone 2 cardio, with occasional zone 5
3. Progressive resistance training
4. Core work, mobility and balancing work

Of these, crawling doesn't do much to help prepare us for doing SPP to address #1-3.

Crawling might help with #4 a bit, but as a biped, the balance that really matters and may save you from falling injuries is what you can do on 2 feet.

So, no, I wouldn't place crawling as well-suited for the highest level of GPP for longevity, unless it is as a extreme regression for somebody who is infirm or otherwise unable to do more.

And even then, it would be something we'd want to progress beyond as soon as we're able.

If one is fit enough to do KB swings, one shouldn't be in the category of someone who needs crawling as a regression.

If you do, then KB swings are probably too challenging.

My 79 year old mom would fit into this category -- not fit enough for KB swings, so could start with crawling, so she's far from the "highest level."
 
Last edited:
watchnerd said:
So, no, I wouldn't place crawling as well-suited for the highest level of GPP for longevity, unless it is as a extreme regression for somebody who is infirm or otherwise unable to do more.

And even then, it would be something we'd want to progress beyond as soon as we're able.

If one is fit enough to do KB swings, one shouldn't be in the category of someone who needs crawling as a regression.

If you do, then KB swings are probably too challenging.

My 79 year old mom would fit into this category -- not fit enough for KB swings, so could start with crawling, so she's far from the "highest level."
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
I tend to agree, overall.

There is great value to crawling about, moving in different ways, on the ground or above it.

Really, we have swings and get ups v swings and crawling as a minimalist gpp.

And get ups win.

The reason why s&s is swings and get ups and not swings and crawling.

Can you do swings and crawling? Sure, absolutely go for it. You may not like get ups and prefer crawling but if you seek gpp by moving in a variety of ways then get ups get the nod.

Do both. Do a get up and crawl about for a bit Do another get up. Do presses at every stage too should you want/need. Mix it up, crawl and crab walk, whatever.

But overall, the gpp choice of get ups v crawling, get ups are, er, hands down a better option.

Of course if a goal is to crawl for 30 minutes, then get crawling.

A very good summery here:

www.strongfirst.com

The Forgotten Benefits of the Get-Up | StrongFirst

Crawling might be popular in fitness right now, but the get-up has all the same benefits plus many more to offer. Let's compare the two, and I'll explain.
www.strongfirst.com

....which doesn't dismiss crawling at all and indeed praises it highly, just that get ups are better for the gpp movement thing...
 
What do I think is better than crawling?

Loaded carries.

Ipsilateral, contralateral, bilateral, unilateral, weight overhead, weight by the side, weight hugged against body, weight on the back. Walking, lunges. Done for distance, done for weight. All will work on stability, balance and core. Mix it up.
 
Last edited:
FWIW, Geoff Neupert seems to hold crawling in high regard. For example, in a thread similar to this one he wrote:

"Physical feats I accomplished that I link directly to OS/crawling:
  • OAOLPU each side w/ no warm up
  • Bodyweight Pistols - worked up to 5 sets of 10 each side (had to use counterbalance before)
  • Straight bar muscle ups"
...and...

"Interesting side note: In the early days of OS, we saw a lot of people improve their TGU from dropping it from their program and replacing it with crawling."
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom