Other/Mixed The Great GTG Thread

[Antti]

I see that we need to clarify what is GTG. E.g., does Easy Strength qualify? Plan Strong?…

I asked Pavel and he answered:

“While 'greasing of the grove’ takes place with every rep you make—including in ES, PS, and many other types of programming—the GTG method does more than that. It maximizes the results of strength practice by enabling a very high volume through a combination of stopping far from failure (which is not unique to GTG) and extreme rest periods (which is unique). This minimizes stress by reducing the cellular membrane damage by free radicals, spiked in part by lactic acid and cortisol. For a 50% RM set a 10min rest is minimal to produce these effects.

“In summary, GTG is sets with < 50% of the max reps possible with a given resistance with >10 rests between sets, and high training frequency.

-S-

Nice summary.

Now, being who I am, I started thinking what kind of set ranges within these parameters people have generally found work and how well. I wonder if we could establish some trend lines, or if some have been established already.

In general, I would agree that as far performance stays the same, more is better. Still, the effect of each set would diminish. But how rapidly?

 

[Mattye]

Thanks Steve, and Pavel. Good answer to clarify. Really like how Pavel can make things seem simple in few words.

 

[Adachi]

most of my sets had an hour between them.

 

[flightposite]

Grease the groove is practicing the move over the course the day, most days of the week.

I would not say that PTTP is the same thing as easy strength, however. Higher loading and only two exercises vs much lower (average) loading and 4-5 exercises.

In my opinion, a program kind of like Soju and Tuba is somewhere between GtG and PTTP. High load, high frequency, but low rep sets.

Are you trying to find something between ES and GtG? There’s the concept of “micro sessions.” Basically, pick a handful of moves, say A,B,C,D. You would do move A in the morning, move B a while later, etc. It’s tough to do if you don’t have the means to throughout the day though.

If I am not mistaken and I could be because it’s been awhile since I read the original copy of easy strength. But I do believe pttp was mentioned. It would still fit the category of easy strength.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

If I am not mistaken and I could be because it’s been awhile since I read the original copy of easy strength. But I do believe pttp was mentioned. It would still fit the category of easy strength.

PTTP is mentioned many times in Easy Strength. PTTP follows the rule of 10 which is easy strength and you do it 2-5 days per week. Dan John says it is the ideal program for a Q3 athlete because it leaves you so much time for your sport or whatever you have going on in life. And then goes on to say that it’s like GTG. It works so well that few people believe it will work well for them. (Pgs 54-55) I’ve been nerding out on Easy Strength for a while now.

 

[Anth]

Man, I was just about to ask a grease to groove question on a new thread, so this is great timing. Can I ask my question here?

I’m trying to decide between greasing the groove with kettlebell swings or kettlebell snatches.

My goals are 1. Strength, 2. Body composition, 3. Energy boosts.

I would probably do 5-10 sets of 2-3 snatches per arm over the course of a day.

I am also doing a twice a week program that involves Turkish get ups and the armor building complex. So I would do grease the groove on my day off.

 

[Ege]

Nice summary.

Now, being who I am, I started thinking what kind of set ranges within these parameters people have generally found work and how well. I wonder if we could establish some trend lines, or if some have been established already.

In general, I would agree that as far performance stays the same, more is better. Still, the effect of each set would diminish. But how rapidly?

In my limited experience, an easy 5 rep set works well with a progression that enables 10-12 technical rep max which enables sustainability. Below that let’s say 6 max with 3 rep GTG sets did not feel comfortable.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

Man, I was just about to ask a grease to groove question on a new thread, so this is great timing. Can I ask my question here?

I’m trying to decide between greasing the groove with kettlebell swings or kettlebell snatches.

My goals are 1. Strength, 2. Body composition, 3. Energy boosts.

I would probably do 5-10 sets of 2-3 snatches per arm over the course of a day.

I am also doing a twice a week program that involves Turkish get ups and the armor building complex. So I would do grease the groove on my day off.

Sounds good. I’ve done similar especially to just get in the technical practice of the movements. I also like to do 1 swing, 1 clean, and 1 snatch as a practice or gtg

 

[Anth]

Sounds good. I’ve done similar especially to just get in the technical practice of the movements. I also like to do 1 swing, 1 clean, and 1 snatch as a practice or gtg

I was wondering about something like this too. Like maybe 5 two handed swings, then 1-2 snatches with a lighter bell on each side.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

I was wondering about something like this too. Like maybe 5 two handed swings, then 1-2 snatches with a lighter bell on each side.

Should be fine. Just listen to your body.

 

[flightposite]

PTTP is mentioned many times in Easy Strength. PTTP follows the rule of 10 which is easy strength and you do it 2-5 days per week. Dan John says it is the ideal program for a Q3 athlete because it leaves you so much time for your sport or whatever you have going on in life. And then goes on to say that it’s like GTG. It works so well that few people believe it will work well for them. (Pgs 54-55) I’ve been nerding out on Easy Strength for a while now.

Yep. Thanks for confirming I was pretty certain I read it in my copy. But I haven’t read it in many years.
Anyways have always loved pttp.

 

[Pete L]

Man, I was just about to ask a grease to groove question on a new thread, so this is great timing. Can I ask my question here?

I’m trying to decide between greasing the groove with kettlebell swings or kettlebell snatches.

My goals are 1. Strength, 2. Body composition, 3. Energy boosts.

I would probably do 5-10 sets of 2-3 snatches per arm over the course of a day.

I am also doing a twice a week program that involves Turkish get ups and the armor building complex. So I would do grease the groove on my day off.

This article effectively covers this notion;

“160 Seconds a Day Keep the Doctor Away!”—Burn More Fat and Improve Your Health without Breaking a Sweat with a Simple Swing Protocol | StrongFirst

There is an old Italian proverb that reads "One apple a day keeps the doctor away." I took the liberty to substitute the apple with 160 seconds. Let me tell you why I did so.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Anth]

This article effectively covers this notion;

“160 Seconds a Day Keep the Doctor Away!”—Burn More Fat and Improve Your Health without Breaking a Sweat with a Simple Swing Protocol | StrongFirst

There is an old Italian proverb that reads "One apple a day keeps the doctor away." I took the liberty to substitute the apple with 160 seconds. Let me tell you why I did so.

www.strongfirst.com

I always wanted to do this, but I can't work it with the "every hour on the hour" schedule. I'm hoping to get similar effects from what I'm doing. Unfortunately, I can't do swings at work.

 

[Adachi]

I always wanted to do this, but I can't work it with the "every hour on the hour" schedule. I'm hoping to get similar effects from what I'm doing. Unfortunately, I can't do swings at work.

yes, I tried doing grease the groove sets at the office and I was told it makes people uncomfortable. so, I use my lunch hour to take the bells outside almost daily.

 

[Alan Mackey]

yes, I tried doing grease the groove sets at the office and I was told it makes people uncomfortable. so, I use my lunch hour to take the bells outside almost daily.

Do a few sets of hip thrusts at the office, making eye contact with your coworkers. And when you finish, just say very calmly: now that was really uncomfortable, wasn't it?

 

[Brickwork]

I asked Pavel and he answered:

“While 'greasing of the grove’ takes place with every rep you make—including in ES, PS, and many other types of programming—the GTG method does more than that. It maximizes the results of strength practice by enabling a very high volume through a combination of stopping far from failure (which is not unique to GTG) and extreme rest periods (which is unique). This minimizes stress by reducing the cellular membrane damage by free radicals, spiked in part by lactic acid and cortisol. For a 50% RM set a 10min rest is minimal to produce these effects.

“In summary, GTG is sets with < 50% of the max reps possible with a given resistance with >10 minute rests between sets, and high training frequency.

-S-

Clear and succinct explanation - thank you!

Presumably there is also an intention to increase volume (set per day/week) as well?

For those of us who are inclined to ‘over’ program, has someone devised a GTG program which outlines how to increase volume during a training block?

I’m considering adopting a GTG-approach to pull ups (or OAPU) over a 6-12 week training block. I suspect a linear approach to building volume (for sets) would make it likely that you hit a wall pretty quickly.

Is there thinking on how long GTG can be adopted before there’s diminishing returns? If it was down concurrently with a separate 12 week block Should there be a waviness? Light/medium/heavy days each week?

Lots of questions marks - appreciate any insights.

 

[Torin]

Is there thinking on how long GTG can be adopted before there’s diminishing returns?

I've used GTG successfully for a long time.

I usually cycle into something else because I overwork the 2 exercises I'm greasing the groove with, not because I've stopped making progress.

From Pavel:

May 2, 2013
GTG keeps working for a long time.

 

[kodo kb]

Clear and succinct explanation - thank you!

Presumably there is also an intention to increase volume (set per day/week) as well?

For those of us who are inclined to ‘over’ program, has someone devised a GTG program which outlines how to increase volume during a training block?

I’m considering adopting a GTG-approach to pull ups (or OAPU) over a 6-12 week training block. I suspect a linear approach to building volume (for sets) would make it likely that you hit a wall pretty quickly.

Is there thinking on how long GTG can be adopted before there’s diminishing returns? If it was down concurrently with a separate 12 week block Should there be a waviness? Light/medium/heavy days each week?

Lots of questions marks - appreciate any insights.

I’ve been running through GTG for about two months now for pull-ups and handstand pushups, and tested myself for the first time today, so I’ll give you my thoughts on it. I started working with jumping chin-ups and today and got 3 full chin-ups comfortably (starting from 0 full chins); I started with shaky 1/4 or 1/8 handstand pushups and today did 7 half-reps comfortably.

I really love training like this and it fits into my life perfectly. I think I’ll stick with this for a year for my upper body and see how far I can go with it.

Don’t test your max during only 6–12weeks, only do it at the start and at the end. Unless you’re a complete beginner, Pavel recommends you—at most—test your max every 2months (only 2 times a year if you’re elite).

Don’t focus on increasing reps. Treat it like Chris Somer’s steady state training. Focus on doing the reps better and better, and let them feel easier throughout the 6–12 weeks.

Do vary the days, but I wouldn’t plan it. GTG can easily build CNS fatigue if you’re not careful about staying within yourself (and within how well your life is set up to let you recovery). Do an easier day with less reps or an easier pull-up version when you think you need to. Push it only when you think you’re up for it.

Here’s what I did:
Take a pull-up variation you can do 5-10 reps with, and then—most of the time—have days where you do sets of ~40%RM every 2 hours.

Sometimes do days where you do less reps, sometimes more sets, some days you do sets with an easier variation for more reps (but still leave a few in the tank), some days do only three sets of singles/doubles of a harder variation.

 

[Sanjoy Mahajan]

I have positive GTG pushup experiences to report, and a question arising from the experience.

First, as a calibration: About 4 years ago, when teaching only online, I would give the students a 1- or 2-minute break in the middle of the Zoom hour to get their (and my) blood flowing. I would do as many push ups as I could, though not at all strictly (e.g. my elbows probably went far outward), and could do 18 or 20.

Last year, after learning the strict SF push-up standards and seeing the SF Twitter post about how to use GTG for 30 days to master push ups, I tested my push-up RM, and it was only 6. Probably I was stronger than 4 years ago, thanks to S&S KB swings (my swing has gone slowly from 16 kg to Timeless Simple [32 kg], almost exactly 50% of my BW); and the big reduction in push-up RM was probably due to adopting strict push-ups.

After 2 weeks of GTG push-ups (9 sets daily of 2, 3, or 4 reps, depending on the die roll), I retested, and my RM had doubled to 12. After 2 more weeks, it had reached 15. I called it a success but did no more push-ups.

This year, I had to stop training for several months after a concussion, and could feel myself getting weaker. Once I could train again, I tested my push-up RM, and it had dropped to 8.

I've just finished another 30 days of GTG starting from that point. After 2 weeks, the RM of 8 had risen to 16. After the latest 2 weeks, it had risen from 16 to 18.

So, it's again a success. But I now wonder:

Have I plateaued with GTG push-ups, or should I keep going? I would like to increase my RM to 50 or similar, and I really enjoy the GTG approach.

 

[Bauer]

I have positive GTG pushup experiences to report, and a question arising from the experience.

First, as a calibration: About 4 years ago, when teaching only online, I would give the students a 1- or 2-minute break in the middle of the Zoom hour to get their (and my) blood flowing. I would do as many push ups as I could, though not at all strictly (e.g. my elbows probably went far outward), and could do 18 or 20.

Last year, after learning the strict SF push-up standards and seeing the SF Twitter post about how to use GTG for 30 days to master push ups, I tested my push-up RM, and it was only 6. Probably I was stronger than 4 years ago, thanks to S&S KB swings (my swing has gone slowly from 16 kg to Timeless Simple [32 kg], almost exactly 50% of my BW); and the big reduction in push-up RM was probably due to adopting strict push-ups.

After 2 weeks of GTG push-ups (9 sets daily of 2, 3, or 4 reps, depending on the die roll), I retested, and my RM had doubled to 12. After 2 more weeks, it had reached 15. I called it a success but did no more push-ups.

This year, I had to stop training for several months after a concussion, and could feel myself getting weaker. Once I could train again, I tested my push-up RM, and it had dropped to 8.

I've just finished another 30 days of GTG starting from that point. After 2 weeks, the RM of 8 had risen to 16. After the latest 2 weeks, it had risen from 16 to 18.

So, it's again a success. But I now wonder:

Have I plateaued with GTG push-ups, or should I keep going? I would like to increase my RM to 50 or similar, and I really enjoy the GTG approach.

Did you adjust your reps per set after re-testing?

Two approaches that might work:
* On some days doing more than half the reps you are capable of, and on some days doing less (1/3 to 2/3).
* Sometimes including ladders, in your case probably something like 2,4,6 and 2,4,6,8 or even 2,4,6,8,10 . Or just going up in steps of 2-3 reps until your technique gets compromised. 2 ladders per day might already be enough, if doing them not GTG but in a "I go you go" tempo.