Barbell To arch or not to arch

[bluejeff]

Are y’all considering retracting shoulder blades or lifting your chest to be arching your back?

This was my tom-ay-to tom-ah-to reference.

There’s a HUGE difference in benching with feet on the floor and a big “powerlifting” arch versus just tucking the shoulders.

This, as you say, is a big difference. I would posit, however ,that the position of the shoulder blades between the former and latter is pretty much the same. The "powerlifting arch" doesn't, from what I can tell, change the position of the scaps that much. That is, the relative position of the scaps in "just retracting the scaps" vs a "huge powerlifting arch" is not going to be that different. Arching the back/spine more isn't going to add extra retraction. It will change the angle of the press, however. All I was getting at was that retracting the scaps vs lifting the chest is going to be pretty much the same thing. Adding in pushing with the feet and hips is an extra element.

Then again, I also think (and this is my fault) that we are perhaps getting a little too nitpicky, maybe?

 

[John K]

This was my tom-ay-to tom-ah-to reference.

This, as you say, is a big difference. I would posit, however ,that the position of the shoulder blades between the former and latter is pretty much the same. The "powerlifting arch" doesn't, from what I can tell, change the position of the scaps that much. That is, the relative position of the scaps in "just retracting the scaps" vs a "huge powerlifting arch" is not going to be that different. Arching the back/spine more isn't going to add extra retraction. It will change the angle of the press, however. All I was getting at was that retracting the scaps vs lifting the chest is going to be pretty much the same thing. Adding in pushing with the feet and hips is an extra element.

Then again, I also think (and this is my fault) that we are perhaps getting a little too nitpicky, maybe?

I think we’re in agreement, I misunderstood you.

 

[Pavel.Kosenkov]

As with many things around here, the techniques we teach generally enhance both safety and performance, e.g., better full body tension spreads the load and makes any one thing less likely to fail. In this way, we are reducing the "stress" on any one joint.

-S-

Its a very good and very non-bench-specific answer.

 

[Pavel.Kosenkov]

You can read about scapulohumeral rhythm in general to get a basic idea:

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www.physio-pedia.com

You could do some searches on scapulohumeral rhythm in regards to differnt lifts as well to see what others have to say.

In general, when we move the arm (in day to day living) the scapula moves around on the ribcage in tandem with the humerus. An issue with the "shoulders down and back" cue is that if you keep your shoulder blades stuck in one place, that means the ball of the humerus in the socket risks being "pulled" away from the socket depending on how you are reaching with your arm. Biomechanically speaking, you would aim to have the socket pointing the same direction as the humerus so the two stay more congruent.

This is not to say the bench press is "bad." It's just that you would want to be sure to also train movements that allow the shoulder blades to move.

You may have heard of scapular pushups or "pushup plus" as an exercise to help with shoulder health. This is one example.

Hope that helps. I am happy to find more material if needed.

Thanks. I will read this.
I am more interested in this for my dancing and mobility exercises - I think this will be helpful.

 

[Steve Freides]

Are y’all considering retracting shoulder blades or lifting your chest to be arching your back?

You arch in two directions that are 90 degrees from each other.

-S-

 

[North Coast Miller]

Evaluation and comparison of electromyographic activity in bench press with feet on the ground and active hip flexion

The present study aimed to evaluate and compare the levels of electromyographic activation in the pectoralis major, anterior deltoid, triceps brachii, forearm, rectus abdominis, external oblique, and rectus femoris muscles during a horizontal bench press ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[John K]

You arch in two directions that are 90 degrees from each other.

-S-

Not understanding what you’re saying.

 

[Steve Freides]

Not understanding what you’re saying.

Think laying on a yoga block running along your spine. IOW, you arch the long way, shoulder to hips/toes, and you also arch side to side.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

Its a very good and very non-bench-specific answer.

Indeed it is. We are a principles-based school of strength. The principles extend across all of our courses and certifications, and they extend across all lifts as well, applied appropriately to each mode of strength (kettlebell, barbell, bodyweight) and each individual lift within each mode.

-S-

 

[silveraw]

Evaluation and comparison of electromyographic activity in bench press with feet on the ground and active hip flexion

The present study aimed to evaluate and compare the levels of electromyographic activation in the pectoralis major, anterior deltoid, triceps brachii, forearm, rectus abdominis, external oblique, and rectus femoris muscles during a horizontal bench press ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So the ultimate bench position is kinda like this?

 

[silveraw]

Indeed it is. We are a principles-based school of strength. The principles extend across all of our courses and certifications, and they extend across all lifts as well, applied appropriately to each mode of strength (kettlebell, barbell, bodyweight) and each individual lift within each mode.

-S-

Ahh, that makes the recent spread the load article make sense. I kinda read it and left with "Sooo compound lifts are good?"

 

[North Coast Miller]

So the ultimate bench position is kinda like this?
View attachment 24498

It depends if you want to maximize your adaptive response or not. I also prefer to cross my ankles...

 

[bluejeff]

With topics like these, I think there are two sorts of approaches to lifts/movements: one that focuses on lifting the most absolute weight, and one that focuses on stressing particular muscles.

In the former, this is the obvious route for competitions, sports, and maybe certain atheletic endeavors.

For the latter, this would be the route to go for bodybuilding, rehabilitation, and "general strength." What I mean by this is that by focusing on getting muscles stronger, you will, in general, be a stronger human.

In the current benching discussion, I would think the powerlifting bench would allow one to lift more weight even though, according to the study provided by @North Coast Miller, the feet-up, hips-flexed position is better for muscle recruitment.

It would be interesting to see if splicing the feet-up version into a training program also increased someone's powerlifting bench.

Take the example of a standing overhead press vs a seated Z-press. Everyone can lift wayyy more in the standing OHP, but I would wager upper body muscle activation in the Z-press is higher. The way I think of it is that if I want to train my shoulders, I find something that really stresses the shoulders. If I want to lift a lot of weight, or do some kind of compound movement, I want to "spread the load" through the body. I think both are important.