Other/Mixed To manipulate HR or not to?

[Aziatik]

So I wonder opinions on this - to assume the recovery position or not to during AGT? During intensity training it's a no brainer for me. Drops my hr like a stone.

I had about an hour of testing maxes today in a hot and humid environment and wanted to hit some AXE at the end. I know, not an ideal order. So I grabbed a 32 and chalked up.

Initially my hr was all over the place., I was moving to find a cool spot, dragging gear around, so not ideal. Had the thought to get into the recovery position Jordan was known for.


Result on the hr was dramatic. I remained standing for :20 after the set to let my hr fully soar then put hands on knees for :30. The before and after is pretty clear. I could talk and all that, was just the heat and humidity affecting recovery.

 

[Bauer]

I remained standing for :20 after the set to let my hr fully soar then put hands on knees for :30.

Did you stand still or did you do some fast-and-loose?

I actually have wondered about the same thing a couple of times before. Yes, it lowers HR. But then again, I would imagine the Soviets having experimented with that too, and finding active relaxation techniques to be more effective for clearing creatine phosphate, etc.

But with step loading this might a worthwhile experiment: Alternating sessions with the MJ stance and without, recording HR, RPE and muscle burn.

 

[Xene]

I also experimented with this and I also feel like my HR comes down quickly with this stance.
And the temptation between AXE repeats (especially sprints) or between BJJ rolling rounds is huge to just go into the stance and wait for recovery.

BUT
After reading a lot of the available material from PAVEL and doing ATC/SE/Second Wind seminars I am sure that fast and loose drills, walking around etc. is the way to go. Together with emergency breathing this will keep you going. The HR stays a little higher, but your muscles stay in the game for a longer time.
In our BJJ class I can observe how most of the lower belts use the MJ technique, suck for wind and try their best to be ready for the next round. While most of the higher belts keep on moving, walk around, jump, do fast and loose and keep on smashing everyone.

Maybe you can combine both techniques - do 15-20 seconds of the MJ stance and then switch to walk around and shake it out. Keep us updated how you proceed.

 

[Tjerr]

Not necessarily on topic: but with a high heart rate during exercise, you muscles help pump blood around. So I can think that the fast and loose drills help the blood circulation and remove waste products more efficiently?

 

[Aziatik]

Did you stand still or did you do some fast-and-loose?

I actually have wondered about the same thing a couple of times before. Yes, it lowers HR. But then again, I would imagine the Soviets having experimented with that too, and finding active relaxation techniques to be more effective for clearing creatine phosphate, etc.

But with step loading this might a worthwhile experiment: Alternating sessions with the MJ stance and without, recording HR, RPE and muscle burn.

Normally I nose breathe and move around, yes to fast and loose and shaking out too. Also normally begin with the A+A work then do strength but given the aim to test maxes yesterday I began there.

Yesterday was a special circumstance with an eye popping result. Feels like something I'd use to get a few more repeats in here and there for A+A when my power is still good but recovery less so.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

So I wonder opinions on this - to assume the recovery position or not to during AGT? During intensity training it's a no brainer for me. Drops my hr like a stone.

I had about an hour of testing maxes today in a hot and humid environment and wanted to hit some AXE at the end. I know, not an ideal order. So I grabbed a 32 and chalked up.

Initially my hr was all over the place., I was moving to find a cool spot, dragging gear around, so not ideal. Had the thought to get into the recovery position Jordan was known for.
View attachment 24458

Result on the hr was dramatic. I remained standing for :20 after the set to let my hr fully soar then put hands on knees for :30. The before and after is pretty clear. I could talk and all that, was just the heat and humidity affecting recovery.

View attachment 24459

Big fan of the Jordan Position and will use when I'm pushing density/volume or whenever.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Not necessarily on topic: but with a high heart rate during exercise, you muscles help pump blood around. So I can think that the fast and loose drills help the blood circulation and remove waste products more efficiently?

Yeah, I mean, is lowering heart rate more quickly necessarily preferable? The higher heart rate probably pumps oxygen and glycogen back to the muscles sooner also. I've never been a fan of, for example, collapsing to the ground and making sweat angels either even though it probably would lower the heart rate faster than walking around.

 

[Aziatik]

Yeah, I mean, is lowering heart rate more quickly necessarily preferable? The higher heart rate probably pumps oxygen and glycogen back to the muscles sooner also. I've never been a fan of, for example, collapsing to the ground and making sweat angels either even though it probably would lower the heart rate faster than walking around.

When recovery before the next interval is important, yes, at least for me.

 

[Wes Yeary]

I immediately thought this had something to do with your HR department at work and how you intended to manipulate them.
I was going to say yes, go ahead.
My apologies.

 

[Boris Bachmann]

When recovery before the next interval is important, yes, at least for me.

Well, that's my point - that HR is not all there is to recovery, but carry on as you see fit.

 

[Anna C]

I agree with @Boris Bachmann, the HR is an a proxy or indicator of what's going on physiologically as a complete picture. You want to do things that help recovery overall, which has found to be fast & loose, walking around, recovery breathing. You don't want to do things that specifically drop the HR without bringing the rest of the physiology along with it. The heart pumping blood around is what allows the other recovery processes such as replenishing energy, removing waste products, shuttling things around, etc. to occur.

Along these lines as another example, the living kidney donor community is somewhat fixated on creatinine as a measure of kidney function. (eGFR is not as accurate for people with one kidney). Creatinine is a waste product from muscle that is present in the blood in relatively stable amounts and is filtered out by the kidney. So the level in the blood can be measured to provide sort of a proxy or measure for how fast and efficiently the kidney is filtering. But the kidney is doing TONS of things as it filters the blood. So when people get too fixated on creatinine or things they can do to lower that number, they are missing the point. You want creatinine to accurately represent ALL the things that are going on, not try to target it directly for improvement.

 

[John K]

I agree with @Boris Bachmann, the HR is an a proxy or indicator of what's going on physiologically as a complete picture. You want to do things that help recovery overall, which has found to be fast & loose, walking around, recovery breathing. You don't want to do things that specifically drop the HR without bringing the rest of the physiology along with it. The heart pumping blood around is what allows the other recovery processes such as replenishing energy, removing waste products, shuttling things around, etc. to occur.

Along these lines as another example, the living kidney donor community is somewhat fixated on creatinine as a measure of kidney function. (eGFR is not as accurate for people with one kidney). Creatinine is a waste product from muscle that is present in the blood in relatively stable amounts and is filtered out by the kidney. So the level in the blood can be measured to provide sort of a proxy or measure for how fast and efficiently the kidney is filtering. But the kidney is doing TONS of things as it filters the blood. So when people get too fixated on creatinine or things they can do to lower that number, they are missing the point. You want creatinine to accurately represent ALL the things that are going on, not try to target it directly for improvement.

Reminds me of grip strength being linked to longevity so people focus on timed hangs and grip training because they think that’ll make them live longer.

 

[Anna C]

Reminds me of grip strength being linked to longevity so people focus on timed hangs and grip training because they think that’ll make them live longer.

Yes, that's another one that I suspect is similar!

 

[trencherman]

Another is that sitting-rising test that was developed by Brazilian researchers and got a lot of media coverage as a test for longevity a few years back.

 

[John K]

Another is that sitting-rising test that was developed by Brazilian researchers and got a lot of media coverage as a test for longevity a few years back.

Oh is that the fewer points of contact with the ground means you’ll live longer?

 

[trencherman]

Yep, that's the one.

 

[Alexander Halford]

But then again, I would imagine the Soviets having experimented with that too

AXE book covers this pretty much. I tested it as well, it drops the HR, but gives no subjective change in respiration rate, in addition what was said here.

 

[Anna C]

View attachment 24493
AXE book covers this pretty much. I tested it as well, it drops the HR, but gives no subjective change in respiration rate, in addition what was said here.

Of course Pavel says it best.

I did have a follow on thought about this topic. I was practicing today during a weightlifting session where I was testing my maxes some of what @mgracia wrote in this excellent article: Breathing—A Key Factor to Competition Success | StrongFirst

In some situations, where the heart rate is elevated due to adrenaline or nervous system excitement, it may in fact be useful to try to use breathing or other techniques to slow it down. The breathing techniques work well!

So with kettlebell training, sometimes the heart rate is driven by getting hyped up, much like it is with a heavy barbell Clean & Jerk --for example, a heavy get-up, or a heavy set of swings or snatches. But with AXE and other protocols that are sub-maximal repeat training, the heart rate usually is a pretty good proxy for overall physiological activity. Not quite metabolic activity, as it is for steady state cardio. But perhaps somewhere in between. And once we control for variables, i.e. each repeat we are in more or less the same mental and physical state, then we can use HR for a pretty good indicator of readiness. It takes some practice to learn how to "let it be what it will be" (i.e. not artificially try to make it drop faster) as well as getting regular enough with your practice that you're minimizing the variability of other inputs. Once you get to know it, it becomes pretty useful. Prior to then, it can lead you astray, as Pavel says above.

All that said, once you get to know your HR, you can use it to help you find overall recovery strategies such as fast & loose, walking, calming your mind, relaxing your muscles, that both help you recover faster and drop your HR faster.

 

[Antti]

Of course Pavel says it best.

I did have a follow on thought about this topic. I was practicing today during a weightlifting session where I was testing my maxes some of what @mgracia wrote in this excellent article: Breathing—A Key Factor to Competition Success | StrongFirst

In some situations, where the heart rate is elevated due to adrenaline or nervous system excitement, it may in fact be useful to try to use breathing or other techniques to slow it down. The breathing techniques work well!

So with kettlebell training, sometimes the heart rate is driven by getting hyped up, much like it is with a heavy barbell Clean & Jerk --for example, a heavy get-up, or a heavy set of swings or snatches. But with AXE and other protocols that are sub-maximal repeat training, the heart rate usually is a pretty good proxy for overall physiological activity. Not quite metabolic activity, as it is for steady state cardio. But perhaps somewhere in between. And once we control for variables, i.e. each repeat we are in more or less the same mental and physical state, then we can use HR for a pretty good indicator of readiness. It takes some practice to learn how to "let it be what it will be" (i.e. not artificially try to make it drop faster) as well as getting regular enough with your practice that you're minimizing the variability of other inputs. Once you get to know it, it becomes pretty useful. Prior to then, it can lead you astray, as Pavel says above.

All that said, once you get to know your HR, you can use it to help you find overall recovery strategies such as fast & loose, walking, calming your mind, relaxing your muscles, that both help you recover faster and drop your HR faster.

I'm sorry, as when you mention the barbell clean and jerk jn the same sentence as getting hyped up, do you mean that the heart rate gets high because of psychological arousal and not the physiological demands of the lift?

 

[Anna C]

I'm sorry, as when you mention the barbell clean and jerk jn the same sentence as getting hyped up, do you mean that the heart rate gets high because of psychological arousal and not the physiological demands of the lift?

Yes. There is some of both of course, because the lift itself has a big physiological demand. But getting amped up is part of what makes the heavy barbell C&J doable. For lighter lifts, it's not necessary. But heavy is when leg slaps, big vocal yells, quick big inhale breaths, ammonia capsules or smelling salts, coaches slapping you on the traps, etc. can all come into play. Even without all that, mental anticipation, not to mention getting out on stage to do it while competing, all get the HR up before the lift even starts.