Other/Mixed Training with a calorie deficit
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Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
I think you should forget about losing weight with those numbers. Eat well, sleep a lot, train hard. Your body composition will change to the better that way. You're not overweight, you have to change some of the fat to muscle. And that doesn't really happen optimally with a calorie deficit.
Groove Greaser
Level 4 Valued Member
This. You don't want to get too skinny and try to build muscle. That's a whole different pain. Plus you get no sympathy when you talk to friends about your struggle to put on more weight!
IonRod
Level 5 Valued Member
I had experience with this approach and it works surprisingly well. Knowing that you have a gluttony day coming up makes it so much easier to say no to that sweet piece of cake on a regular day. If I feel "oooh, I want ice cream", I just put it on the list of things I will gorge on on that one specified day.
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
There is a fat dude inside me trying to get out. I have struggled with my weight pretty much all my adult life - only have to walk down the biscuit aisle to put on 1kg. It took me a long time to realise that getting my weight down and controllable was 100% diet and that trying to determine 'The One' approach based on (well-meaning) recommendations, health guidelines, scientific studies etc wasn't working. So across about a two year period I went on EVERY diet program I could discover via google - one after the after, usually giving each 7-10 days. I was looking for not just what worked (every diet does) but what was the easiest and therefore most sustainable form of weight loss FOR ME. I lost 25kg and found that FOR ME the easiest way to control my diet was to set a target (currently 90kg) and weigh daily, if I am over then I (1) significantly increase protein at the expense of carbs and fat usually by having a double scoop of casein at the beginning of every meal (2) use IF by skipping individual meals. This is easily manageable and low stress - I never get hungry for long - and quite quickly drops my weight to where I want it to be. But something completely different might work as well for you. So try everything with a focus on what is going to work easiest over the long term FOR YOU, whether that's counting calories, low fat, low carbs, high protein, portion control, weight watchers points, fasting, intermittent fasting, vegan, fluids only etc etc etc. Try a combination of approaches - this is good for people with short attention spans - choose a different one every day for seven days. Keeps things interesting and they do all work. Good luck!
cmb
Level 3 Valued Member
Quick update: I've kept with the plan. I'm typically training 6 days a week now. Also added the Captains of Crush training gripper because I want to eventually up my weights with swings and it's a challenge to not let it fly out of my hand (currently using the 24 kg bell for 4 of 10 swing reps).
cmb
Level 3 Valued Member
I've been consistent with my workouts, usually 6 days a week right now. Even with a calorie intake deficit, I have managed to comfortably increase some weights. Here's where I'm at:
3x5 prying goblet squats, 35lb kettlebell.
3x5 hip bridges.
3x5 haloes (each direction), 18lb kettlebell.
10L 10R x 5 swings, 53lb kettlebell, 35lb bell for reps 1-2 and 5-6.
5x1 Turkish get-ups (each side), 53lb kettlebell, 35lb bell for reps 1-2 of each side.
I also alternate between these two each day:
3x4 gripper squeezes (each side), CoC trainer.
2x30sec planks.
The planks are new. I was trying an ab wheel but it's way too difficult and I'm sore for days if I use it.
3x5 prying goblet squats, 35lb kettlebell.
3x5 hip bridges.
3x5 haloes (each direction), 18lb kettlebell.
10L 10R x 5 swings, 53lb kettlebell, 35lb bell for reps 1-2 and 5-6.
5x1 Turkish get-ups (each side), 53lb kettlebell, 35lb bell for reps 1-2 of each side.
I also alternate between these two each day:
3x4 gripper squeezes (each side), CoC trainer.
2x30sec planks.
The planks are new. I was trying an ab wheel but it's way too difficult and I'm sore for days if I use it.
cmb
Level 3 Valued Member
Perhaps a moderator could change this thread to "CMB's Training Log"?
Some questions about the TGU if anyone can help:
1. I have a difficult time rolling to my elbow at the beginning of the TGU. One tip I read somewhere was to slightly angle the bell in the direction you're going so the bell's weight can help you roll—I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but it's what I've been doing. Even doing that, my straight leg still comes up a bit. I don't know what I can do about this.
2. After getting to my palm and before the sweep, I have been bending my straight leg and bringing it in a little so I can straighten my back. To give an idea why: I can't touch my toes. If I am sitting with both legs straight out forward, I can't straighten my back up correctly—to do so I have to bend my knees. Is it alright if I bring that leg in so I can straighten my back before the sweep? And if anyone can point me to exactly what I could be doing to stretch my hamstrings and loosen things up that'd be great. I don't think I've ever been able to touch my toes.
Thanks all.
Some questions about the TGU if anyone can help:
1. I have a difficult time rolling to my elbow at the beginning of the TGU. One tip I read somewhere was to slightly angle the bell in the direction you're going so the bell's weight can help you roll—I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but it's what I've been doing. Even doing that, my straight leg still comes up a bit. I don't know what I can do about this.
2. After getting to my palm and before the sweep, I have been bending my straight leg and bringing it in a little so I can straighten my back. To give an idea why: I can't touch my toes. If I am sitting with both legs straight out forward, I can't straighten my back up correctly—to do so I have to bend my knees. Is it alright if I bring that leg in so I can straighten my back before the sweep? And if anyone can point me to exactly what I could be doing to stretch my hamstrings and loosen things up that'd be great. I don't think I've ever been able to touch my toes.
Thanks all.
Yes, slightly lean the kettlebell in the direction you want to go.
Some other things I have picked up:
- (from SF Team Leader Martine Kerr), "make orange juice", pretend there is an orange under your down elbow and your kettlebell side heel. Crush those 2 oranges.
- (from Master SFG Zar Horton) try pulling on a heavy kettlebell handle (angled towards you) with the down hand as you roll up, or a post if one is available or someone will hold one for you. It will help get that pulling up with the down hand feeling.
- (from Iron Tamer Dave Whitley) activate the "X" on your back before you roll up. Get tight in the back of your body like you're trying to connect your shoulder blades to your opposite glutes.
- (from my SFG Team Leader Senior SFG Mark Cheng) keep the down shoulder packed during the roll-up. (lots of people lose this...)
- Use the power breath as you roll up. "tssss" exhale. I find that it helps with any difficult transition in the get-up.
- (from Senior SFG Betsy Collie) press out through the heel of the straight leg.
Practice the get-up unweighted. Breathe.... Relax.... Spend some time in each position.
thegoldengod
Level 5 Valued Member
The #1 trick for weight loss IMO is consistency. If you feel good every day and can work out every day while keeping your nutrition healthy (whatever your diet is, or restrictions are) you will be fine.
If working out at a caloric deficit is making you feel tired, or prevents you from being consistent, then I would advise to re-think how you're achieving the goal.
1. Eat well, not too much
2. Train consistently
After you've gotten these 2 down, then I'd look into more tactical things to optimize like IF etc. My 2 cents.
You can do this, regardless!
If working out at a caloric deficit is making you feel tired, or prevents you from being consistent, then I would advise to re-think how you're achieving the goal.
1. Eat well, not too much
2. Train consistently
After you've gotten these 2 down, then I'd look into more tactical things to optimize like IF etc. My 2 cents.
You can do this, regardless!
Robert Noftz
Level 5 Valued Member
I'm glad you posted this topic. I have started to lose some weight. I"m 50 years old and started kettlebell training, Simple and Sinister, about 1 1/2 years ago. When I was training about 5 days a week in the early stages I felt I had to eat more and I gained a lot of weight. At the heaviest I got up to about 210lbs and I'm only 5'8''. I probably overdid it a little. I was getting stronger and more endurable so it was easy to fool myself about how much weight I was gaining.
I'm now down to 195 lbs. I went and got a Bod Pod analysis today and it gave me a reading of 21% bodyfat. I don't even want to think about what my bodyfat level was at 210lbs.
I'm going to try to lose some more weight. It's kind of discouraging doing the numbers and seeing what my bodyfat level might be like if I got back down to 175 lbs.
From the reading I have done and from personal experience it seems like it would be easier to gain strength if you don't worry about calories.
I recently read some of Dr Phil Maffetones materials and I have started to implement some of his approach into my routine. Specifically, I recently started adding some aerobic training to my routine using an exercise bike.
I would like to accomplish the Sinister Standard in the future so I need to increase both my strength and endurance. There are a lot of physical traits that will be important for achieving Sinister so that may leave multiple paths available.
It seems like there a a couple ways to go. One would be to do whatever you have to to get strong and then try to add endurance. Another way would be to work on both strength and aerobic capacity at the same time even if it is more difficult. I have seen some publicly available information from people who have accomplished Sinister. It looks like many of them could do swings and getups with heavier weights than the 48kg kettlebells and it still took them a year or two to accomplish Sinister. That leads me to believe the aerobic conditioning is what they needed to develop as well as the intermuscular efficiency.
As far as training with a calorie deficit, supplementing with BCAAs and HMB may be helpful with protein synthesis. When a person ages it does get more difficult to make use of dietary protein. These supplements may help someone who is trying to lose weight or keep the bodyfat low. I have decided to try them for a few months.
Right now my priority is getting some more of the weight off without decreasing performance on the swings and getups. Hopefully some dedicated aerobic training will help burn some fat off in conjunction with some calorie restriction. The added aerobic capacity may make it easier to push the intensity and gain strength in a later phase of training.
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Robert Noftz
Level 5 Valued Member
There is one other point I would like to address that I didn't elaborate on in the last post and it is about education and intelligence. A 40 or 50 year old may not have the recovery ability of a 20 year old so it is even more important to take the most educated and intelligent approach possible. I have begun to implement training protocols and supplementation that aid in recovery. I have started to educate myself so I can train more efficiently and stay healthy. Some lifestyle changes may be needed for many people. I guess it depends on how much of a commitment a person wants to make. It may require good programming if one wants to both lose weight and get stronger.
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
It's also possible to over think it. Every popular strength program works and every popular diet program works. Unless you're aiming to be Mr Olympia, win a medal, break a record or drop below 15% body fat then any approach you can stick to will work. Losing weight and getting stronger is easy, every fat dude I know who has got even semi-serious about the gym has achieved it!
Of course there are some people with very rare conditions that need more than adherence to simple rules about what they eat and how they exercise and while these conditions are rare they are over-represented on online forums, as is concern about cortisol, insulin, testosterone, gut bacteria etc.
If you want to get stronger lift some heavy stuff. If you want to lose weight think about what got you fat in the first place and stop doing it. Very simple rules that work for 99.9% of the population.
Robert Noftz
Level 5 Valued Member
I haven't met too many people that were in danger of overthinking their problem. Most often I find that many people learn a little bit and think they know a whole lot more than they really do.
If someone wants to get above average results and they aren't a genetic freak for the type of training they are doing they will have to use some intelligence.
Someone who is obese and weak from a lack of training may be able to gain some strength and lose weight at the same time. People who have already gained some strength will find it difficult to get stronger if they want to lose fat weight. Once they start to lose fat they may also lose muscle mass and strength. That's just a fact of life.
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
Lol. That is very true.
Not may, will.
Not really, no. I mean not unless their weight loss strategy is unusually aggressive.
They may lose muscle mass and strength but probably not if they follow a program, which was the point of my post. To be more correct they will probably lose some muscle mass during the weight loss period if the amount of weight lost is significant but by continuing strength training this should not noticeably impact strength unless their weight loss strategy is unusually aggressive. (After all the whole purpose of non-hypertrophy strength programs, like PTTP, is that strength does not correlate to muscle mass in such a neat fashion.)
With respect your concerns are more relevant to the question of whether you can build muscle and lose fat simultaneously (which has been proven to be the case in both trained and untrained subjects) than whether you can gain strength and lose fat simultaneously, which is also true and not even controversial.
There is plenty of material on this subject here:
Gaining Muscle Mass in a Deficit vs. Bulking (Research Review) • Sci-Fit
Robert Noftz
Level 5 Valued Member
You posted a webpage that linked to some studies. The first one I clicked on has to do with obese adolescents and is in line with what I wrote. I copy and pasted the results and objectives below.
"
Objective To determine the effects of aerobic training, resistance training, and combined training on percentage body fat in overweight and obese adolescents.
Design, Setting, and Participants Randomized, parallel-group clinical trial at community-based exercise facilities in Ottawa (Ontario) and Gatineau (Quebec), Canada, among previously inactive postpubertal adolescents aged 14 to 18 years (Tanner stage IV or V) with body mass index at or above the 95th percentile for age and sex or at or above the 85th percentile plus an additional diabetes mellitus or cardiovascular risk factor."
I am not going to bother reading all the studies. It's widely known among strength athletes that if they want to gain strength and size then they need to eat more than they need to maintain their current strength and weight. If they are going to lose weight they will have a difficult time maintaining strength and size, and may in fact lose some depending on how much weight they are trying to lose. Anytime a person starts losing fat they will lose some lean body mass as well. That is just a fact.
If you read these studies and any of them contradict what I just stated please point out which one does.
Robert Noftz
Level 5 Valued Member
I looked at the overview of studies for trained individuals and most of the weight loss listed was insignificant. If any of these studies point to anything significant please let me know which one does. Thank you.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I've lost 30kg before - went from 130kg to 100kg, which is the weight I've retained ever since.
Keep yourself away from the fridge with organized activities in the evenings - kettlebell classes would fit the bill or something similar, or like me, judo classes. These organized classes away from the fridge I think also help to suppress the habit of overeating and distract the mind from food.
Walking is great for dealing with excess fat and weight.
S&S is excellent as all have said above.
Getting into limit strength moves like the deadlift at high weight definitely turns fat into muscle. I'm seeing this happen right before my eyes and feeling it in my body. It really works, for sure!
Basically, if it's fat loss that you're after, exercising more, lifting heavier things, and eating less without starving (starving is dangerous, I'm opposed to starvation diets) should make noticeable differences rather quickly.
Keep yourself away from the fridge with organized activities in the evenings - kettlebell classes would fit the bill or something similar, or like me, judo classes. These organized classes away from the fridge I think also help to suppress the habit of overeating and distract the mind from food.
Walking is great for dealing with excess fat and weight.
S&S is excellent as all have said above.
Getting into limit strength moves like the deadlift at high weight definitely turns fat into muscle. I'm seeing this happen right before my eyes and feeling it in my body. It really works, for sure!
Basically, if it's fat loss that you're after, exercising more, lifting heavier things, and eating less without starving (starving is dangerous, I'm opposed to starvation diets) should make noticeable differences rather quickly.
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