all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Vodka, pickles and ... science - results from a mixed deadlift and press program

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Manuel Fortin

Level 6 Valued Member
People on the forum ask all the time how kettlebells and barbells can be mixed. I spent the first 6 weeks of 2017 doing the vodka and pickle deadlift program: Kettlebells and Deadlifts Go Together Like Vodka and Pickles. Pavel states in this blog post that we are on our own for upper body work. Well, it turns out that a good program incorporating the press was posted recently by Craig Marker on the blog: A Science-Based Plan to Prepare You for the SFG Level I and SFG Level II. I simply took the press portion, figuring that the volume and intensity of hinges in the vodka and pickle program would be comparable (of course, not identical as deadlifts are much heavier, but they are in lower volume) to the swings in the SFG prep program.

So, for 18 training sessions, I did:
- Train Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
- I like splitting my training in two sessions, a short one in the morning, right before lunch, and a longer one in the afternoon, right before dinner. So, deadlifts as per the program were done in the morning. Then, in the afternoon, I would do the presses, followed by the accessory work programmed in the deadlift program. I chose 1H swings with 32, 10 sets of 10, and double kettlebell front squat. I was still in the process of learning this last movement, so I started at a small volume, 4 sets of 2 with a 20 and a 24 as I don't have two bells of the same size, and built up to 4 sets of 5 with the same bells.
- Other stuff: not much. This program is taxing. I walked between 30 and 90 minutes each week, depending on weather and time available, and would play outside with my daughter, the only hard part of which being when I pull her in her sled. I did light getups once a week (16kg), only a few reps.
- I had to skip training twice, not on consecutive training days because of a bad cut on one finger and a cold.
- The 18 sessions added to the complete press program, and 3 complete deadlift cycles plus a taper before testing.

I am very happy with the results. One of my resolution this year was to only deadlift with very good form. As soon as my back curves even a little and even in the upper back, I stop. At the beginning, I could deadlift 315 for 1 rep with this perfect form. I could press 28kg once with either arm. I almost had 2 reps with my right arm, but it stalled at eye level. So, 28 was my 1RM.

I tested my deadlift and press yesterday. I sprained a finger on my right hand Friday. This means that I did not trust my grip for a 1 RM in the deadlift. However, I found when warming up that I could deadlift with no pain at least 285. So, I went for a max rep with 315 and got 3. I may had had a fourth rep in, but it would not have been with good form, so I stopped. For the press, I tried the 32 and almost got it on the right, but it would not move on the left. I rested 10 minutes and got 2 nice reps with 28 on the left. On the right, I called it a day as I had already spent a lot of efforts to get the 32 up, and technique was not very good because of my finger injury which prevented me from crushing the handle hard.

A few take-aways from this program:
- It works! Really well. My goals for 2017 are to deadlift 345, or 315 for 5, and press the 32. It's only February and I can see these goals achieved well before the end of the year, at least for the deadlift.
- It is taxing. I was hungry all the time during the first two weeks and was starting to feel tired all the time. I started eating more and everything fell into place.
- I stayed at the lower end of the squats and kettlebell pulls ranges mentioned in the deadlift program blog. My intention was to slowly increase the volume, especially for the swings, but I changed my mind rapidly on that.
- Splitting the sessions into two was wise. Twice I had to do everything in a single session because of schedule issues, and the swings at the end of these sessions were not as good as usual. Even if we think of the press as an upper body move, the way it is performed at strong first really makes it a full body lift as I tried to exert maximal tension on every rep. The deadlifts were also performed in this manner. Even with 65 percent of my max, I approached the bar as if I was going for a 95% max lift. The last 20-40 swings on those two days were not very crisp as I was getting too tired.

Will I run it again? You bet!
 
You write the program was very taxing. Perhaps it would be good to test after a break of a few days up to a week. Otherwise fatique might mask your progress.
 
That is a good report! Thank you, @Manuel Fortin. Glad to hear it worked well for you.

I also just finished the 6-week strength program from A Science-Based Plan to Prepare You for the SFG Level I and SFG Level II

I only did the strength part for the press, but I wouldn't say my results were as good as yours. Before the program, I had pressed the 24kg once of a few occasions on the right (with a bit of a lean) and had pressed 22kg on the left. Quite a few other times, I had tried and failed with the 24kg on the right.

I used 24kg for the 1RM for the calculations, so in the program I was pressing 18, 20, and 22kg for the 75%, 85%, and 90%. For 18 I was doing stacked 12+6, and for 22 I was doing stacked 16+6. So this was less than ideal -- Sort of a "cheat clean" for the stacked bells, and not an optimum grip. This may have skewed my results. Other than that, I did all 18 sessions (3 sessions per week for 6 weeks) exactly per the program.

On the test day of the program, I pressed the 24kg once on the right. Could not press it on the left, and could not press it a second time on the right. I was a bit disappointed with this result. However, I did successfully press it a week after that, once on the right for the SFG II strength test at the cert last weekend... so the program did satisfy my most important objective. And it was a stronger press with better form than what I could do before the program. The cert strength test only requires the press on one side.

I considered what @Marlon Leon pointed out, that maybe I needed more rest before seeing the results, but I wouldn't say that I felt a lot stronger after mostly resting the following week that led up to the cert. I think my conclusion is that I need a higher volume pressing program if I wanted to make further gains with the press. I'm not sure I would recommend it to someone who needs to make a big improvement, but I'd say it was a good program to get that little bit of insurance on a press they are pretty close to already. And it didn't take long for each session, so it can be combined with other training for a bit of structure on press work, without overtaking everything else.

Just my experience with it, to add to the discussion...
 
Pressing two bells with one hand is effectively making it heavier than a single bell of their combined weight (for the reasons you cite - can't get really tight after a clean, center of gravity is different, etc.), so it sounds like you may have had a 75% that was too hard, and a 90% that was too hard.

An 18 kg bell is a worthwhile thing to own for you, IMHO.

-S-
 
Good point, Steve. Yes I wondered if that had an effect, and your description is useful.

Rogue was out of the 18kgs when I looked, but I agree, I should probably own one as it's a good working weight for me now. I'll keep looking. Thanks!
 
@Marlon Leon: There is a taper built in the press program. The last two sessions before the test are very easy. As to the deadlift, I tested on Wednesday. On Monday I did only a few singles 185, 235, 255, 275 and on Friday I did nothing as I sprained my finger in the morning, before I could get my deadlifts in. Maybe I would have been able to lift more with a bit more rest, but I was feeling pretty good on test day, except for the hand injury that was not 100% healed. I also got a bit ambitious with trying the 32 and that probably killed my performance with the 28.

@Anna C : One thing to notice is that is really a 5 weeks program, plus a taper and a test. The last week is mainly there to get you to do a PR. You are not really training. The SFG II standard is nothing to sniff at. I am far from it for my weight ( I would have to press the 44 ). All that to say that I am much earlier in the pressing process than you are, so I would expect that progress would be slower for you over 5 weeks. I started pressing kettlebells less than 1 year ago, and am probably at the end of beginner's gains. I had some muscle from bench pressing and getups, but no press technique. At the time, I could not move a 24 off the rack, and could maybe do 6-7 reps with the 16 (no 20 was available). I found that the program really helped me dial the technique.
 
how kettlebells and barbells can be mixed.

How? Easy...

image001.jpg
 
I just picked up my first kettlebell not from Pavel's old company, a 44 kg from PerformBetter. I was visiting Phil Scarito, tried it, and bought it from him. I'm _very_ pleased with it. Somehow, I had 40 and 48 but never a 44, and that's a really good 2h swing size for me, so I'm happy to have it. Worth a try if you haven't tried them yet, IMHO.

Sounds like you had a great weekend, @Anna C.

-S-
 
Hello,

@Manuel Fortin
Very impressive results ! Congrats !

Do you think it could be a long run program with a proper diet and rest ?

How is your conditioning now ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
@pet' I wanted to test conditioning with testing for the simple goal of S&S, but I could not swing because of my finger injury. When I started the program I was almost at simple. The swings were good but I only got 9 getups in 10 minutes.

It could probably turn into a long term program. If you consider test week as a deload, you could restart the program with a new weight immediately. Actually, if that was my plan, I would restart a new cycle today, and I feel great. One thing is that I am not young anymore. At 46, I feel recovery getting slower than before. If I do it again, I may try to train 5 times every 2 weeks and see how it goes.

I have been on programs with only singles in the deadlift for a while though, and I like to switch the rep range once in a while. My next cycle is an experiment with the 50/20 concept. Try to do 50 reps in 20 minutes. That's it. With the right weight, that will be interesting. You start with a weight that allows you to do about 20-30 reps, and increase the number of reps each week. I will have to program a deload also, but the exact format is not set yet. I will alternate between deadlifts one session and press and front squat (like a thruster, but with a stop between the squat and the press, so that there is no momentum helping the press) the other session, 3 times a week. I plan on adding short sessions of push ups/getups and swing/snatches in the morning, with the 50/20 in the afternoon, but the morning sessions may go if that is too much. If I survive a few months of this, I will get back to low rep sets, and might reuse the present program.
 
Last edited:
I've long been curios about the Vodka and Pickles program and it is one of my options after I achieve Simple. Has anybody paired Vodka and Pickles with Soju and Tuba (+/- pull-ups). This seems like a natural combination?
 
@jhpowers : This could work. I'm not sure about adding pullups though. If you're already doing deadlifts and heavy swings or snatches, pullups would be too much for me. I guess it depends. If you can already do say 5-6 pullups or more, adding a pullup after each press would probably not kill you. I would stay away from max reps though. One day I felt great after my 100 swings, I did 2 sets of 5 cleans with the 32 on each side. Just adding that and my upper back let me know its opinion about that the day after. I was so sore...
 
Chaos Bench is awesome. I have used bands, bells and bars occasionally for variety. Works for many lifts.

It's a great setup for OHP. The lower center of mass increases glenohumeral stability (kind of like a KB) and the shifting weight is brilliant for shoulder stabilization and trunk musculature.
 
Hello,

Using hanging kb on a bar is pretty smart. The swing move implies a greater arm and and shoulder stabilization.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom