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Bodyweight What’s the best way to improve pull ups and chin ups?

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a lat pull down attachment, which I have never installed.
I found a whole lat pull down tower once on a street corner that someone wanted to get rid off. I just took the bar and attached it to my heavy bag attachement under the ceiling. My greatest pull up device for years, because of the wide grip/ narrow grip options and its instability.
bodycraft-latpull-tower-03_1600.jpg
 
I'd say 1x2 to 3x10 is a pretty ambitious goal; even 1x2 to 1x6 in a month would be pretty good. Increasing volume with a weight that is quite challenging for you is always tough at first.
I would strongly recommend using pull-up progressions to approach it, because you'll struggle to do significant volume with your 2 RM - you'll likely only be able to do multiple sets if you do singles. I'd suggest finding a progression that you can currently do 3x10 or at least 3x5 with - body weight rows, jackknife pull-ups and half pull-ups would be the progression recommended by CC, for example, but there are also other options like resistance bands - and increasing intensity from there. Once you are at five reps or so in the pull-up, you have a lot more options in terms of reps and sets.
Alternatively, you could try a GTG approach - multiple (10+) sets of singles throughout the day, then add some doubles, then all doubles, then triples... you get the idea.
 
I found a whole lat pull down tower once on a street corner that someone wanted to get rid off. I just took the bar and attached it to my heavy bag attachement under the ceiling. My greatest pull up device for years, because of the wide grip/ narrow grip options and its instability.
View attachment 15897
I had exactly that - it was sold as a center-mount pullup bar, but you're right - it's the same thing as the handle for lat pulldowns. For me, it was too much instability to be an effective training device. I suspect though, as you say, it could be valuable for some people.

My guess - no science claimed - is that for someone relatively advanced with pullups, which is the category into which I will not-so-humbly put myself, it's not as useful. (My numbers by which I'll call myself "relatively advanced" are: (bw + 20 lb) x 19 reps, 1RM pullup = 88 lbs, 1RM chinup = 106 lbs.)

My focus being on maximum strength, I never tried to pursue a true max reps in bw-only pullups, which is why I added 20 lbs when I decided to work on getting 20 reps - I got 19 - at some form of pullup.

-S-
 
Here's what I believe:
  • Assistance stuff (lat pulls, bands) don't work. They never seemed to help me. Pull-ups are much more of a full-body movement than some people give them credit for.
  • Accumulating volume works. If you can only do sets of 2, do as many sets of two as you can recover from.
  • For assistance work, focus of strengthening the wrist and elbows. Wrist pronation, wrist curls, finger extensions with a band, fingertip pushups. That's the sort of stuff that allows you to accumulate more volume (see step 2).
  • Core work helps (planks, hollow holds, TGUs). It's easier to focus on pulling if you aren't worried about your ability to hold tension and protect your spine.

That's my $0.02, at least

Hanging leg raises and abwheel rollouts have a carryover to chinups/pullups
 
I notice you are the guy who does the mountain strong posts about climbing etc. I was a climber, well an indoor boulderer, until I dislocated my talus after a fall and just kinda lost confidence. Climbing, even in the limited capacity of bouldering indoors developed muscles in my body I’ve never had since and shredded most of the body fat off of me in short order. I still have pop eye forearms and that’s also why I bought climbing implements to attach to my chin up bar etc but to stay on topic lol even as a “climber” I utterly blew at pull-ups and chins.
 
I notice you are the guy who does the mountain strong posts about climbing etc. I was a climber, well an indoor boulderer, until I dislocated my talus after a fall and just kinda lost confidence. Climbing, even in the limited capacity of bouldering indoors developed muscles in my body I’ve never had since and shredded most of the body fat off of me in short order. I still have pop eye forearms and that’s also why I bought climbing implements to attach to my chin up bar etc but to stay on topic lol even as a “climber” I utterly blew at pull-ups and chins.
That’s a pretty common bouldering injury.

Also to stay on topic a bit… loads of climbers love to train pull-ups; some racking up some pretty impressive numbers. I know some really decent climbers; some that have impressive grade standards, that would struggle to do a single decent pull-up, let alone 10.
Sure, pull strength is important and an advantage in climbing, but it’s not everything. Not by a long shot. Oftentimes massive pull-up capability is limiting a climber; especially when it is masking deficiencies in skill and technique.

If I had to endorse or promote only one type of strength training for rock climbing and bouldering (indoors or out) it would be finger strength (grip). (But do pull-ups too…)
 
Re-reading posts in this thread got me thinking....

I have seen an increase in my ability to do more reps of various pulling and pushing exercises by doing strength aerobics-style circuits with them. Basically:
-1-2, sometimes 3 reps of three to four moves in sequence, at a fairly "chill" pace, resting as much as needed.

-Do 10+ rounds this way and you might be surprised at the volume of total reps you can get compared to fewer sets of more reps of the same exercises. I was even able to do this with weights/exercises that I only had a 2-3RM of, getting a total of 20+ reps in the session.

This appears to be how folks who love those Iron Wolf style burpees are able to get 500-1000 pushups in a single session: by doing many sets of 5-10 reps.

OR. . .
Even single or double reps of grease the groove throughout the day will allow you to hit a high number of total reps spread throughout the day. Your goal is 3x10? Start by aiming for 15-20 reps spread throughout the day, then gradually increase that to 30. When you can do 30, clean reps, start doing sets of two and repeat.... The key with this kind of training is that you might at first feel like you're not doing very much . . .and that is actually what you want.
 
That’s a pretty common bouldering injury.

Also to stay on topic a bit… loads of climbers love to train pull-ups; some racking up some pretty impressive numbers. I know some really decent climbers; some that have impressive grade standards, that would struggle to do a single decent pull-up, let alone 10.
Sure, pull strength is important and an advantage in climbing, but it’s not everything. Not by a long shot. Oftentimes massive pull-up capability is limiting a climber; especially when it is masking deficiencies in skill and technique.

If I had to endorse or promote only one type of strength training for rock climbing and bouldering (indoors or out) it would be finger strength (grip). (But do pull-ups too…)
Dislocated talus. I was told as I lay pumped full of morphine by the doctors that they had to phone around and get advice as they had never seen a dislocated talus. Told me I had better odds winning the lottery and they took photos to put in the British Medical Journal. They had to give me general anaesthetic to pop it all back in told me that I might need it fused together which thankfully never happened. Now you mention it I do remember a few climbers with stretch bands at the climbing centre doing the exercises I was given to rehab my ankle. Bloody quacks pulling my leg? Lol
 
That’s a pretty common bouldering injury.

Also to stay on topic a bit… loads of climbers love to train pull-ups; some racking up some pretty impressive numbers. I know some really decent climbers; some that have impressive grade standards, that would struggle to do a single decent pull-up, let alone 10.
Sure, pull strength is important and an advantage in climbing, but it’s not everything. Not by a long shot. Oftentimes massive pull-up capability is limiting a climber; especially when it is masking deficiencies in skill and technique.

If I had to endorse or promote only one type of strength training for rock climbing and bouldering (indoors or out) it would be finger strength (grip). (But do pull-ups too…)
Yeah I like grip training. Some of those climbing devices had to first be attached to kettlebell handles and deadlifted before I could haul my carcass off the deck hanging them from a bar. My absolute favourites are the wooden balls. I’m always in the lookout for other devices.
 
Yeah I like grip training. Some of those climbing devices had to first be attached to kettlebell handles and deadlifted before I could haul my carcass off the deck hanging them from a bar. My absolute favourites are the wooden balls. I’m always in the lookout for other devices.
Low Tech / low dollar … towels
High dollar … hang some Rolling Thunders
 
Low Tech / low dollar … towels
High dollar … hang some Rolling Thunders
Been playing with towel hangs lately. They are pretty crazy on the fingers. The Kids rock-wall in my fitness center (I’m an elementary PE teacher) has a ton of extra holds lying around. I’ve been considering bringing a couple home to hang from the support beams on my back porch/courage corner. I could Would look great next to my pull up bar.
 
Dislocated talus. I was told as I lay pumped full of morphine by the doctors that they had to phone around and get advice as they had never seen a dislocated talus. Told me I had better odds winning the lottery and they took photos to put in the British Medical Journal. They had to give me general anaesthetic to pop it all back in told me that I might need it fused together which thankfully never happened. Now you mention it I do remember a few climbers with stretch bands at the climbing centre doing the exercises I was given to rehab my ankle. Bloody quacks pulling my leg? Lol
My son just had a subtalar fusion, 3 yrs after a climbing accident in Yosemite NP where he fractured some of the talus bone when he hit his foot on a ledge as he fell and the rope caught him. It was painful and he limped pretty bad for those 3 years... a couple of failed surgeries and a few shots and finally decided to go ahead with the fusion. He's 26 yrs old now. But he's currently in Colorado skiing and snowboarding, so I guess it's doing alright. Says it's finally less painful. Interesting feature of that joint though... he told me to stand on one leg. Said, you know what joint you're using to do that? Subtalar joint. He can't do that anymore on the fused foot. This web page calls the subtalar joint "the body's steering wheel." I can't imagine it being dislocated! I guess you found a joint you didn't know you had. Glad to hear it recovered.
 
My son just had a subtalar fusion, 3 yrs after a climbing accident in Yosemite NP where he fractured some of the talus bone when he hit his foot on a ledge as he fell and the rope caught him. It was painful and he limped pretty bad for those 3 years... a couple of failed surgeries and a few shots and finally decided to go ahead with the fusion. He's 26 yrs old now. But he's currently in Colorado skiing and snowboarding, so I guess it's doing alright. Says it's finally less painful. Interesting feature of that joint though... he told me to stand on one leg. Said, you know what joint you're using to do that? Subtalar joint. He can't do that anymore on the fused foot. This web page calls the subtalar joint "the body's steering wheel." I can't imagine it being dislocated! I guess you found a joint you didn't know you had. Glad to hear it recovered.
My son just had a subtalar fusion, 3 yrs after a climbing accident in Yosemite NP where he fractured some of the talus bone when he hit his foot on a ledge as he fell and the rope caught him. It was painful and he limped pretty bad for those 3 years... a couple of failed surgeries and a few shots and finally decided to go ahead with the fusion. He's 26 yrs old now. But he's currently in Colorado skiing and snowboarding, so I guess it's doing alright. Says it's finally less painful. Interesting feature of that joint though... he told me to stand on one leg. Said, you know what joint you're using to do that? Subtalar joint. He can't do that anymore on the fused foot. This web page calls the subtalar joint "the body's steering wheel." I can't imagine it being dislocated! I guess you found a joint you didn't know you had. Glad to hear it recovered.
I “luckily” only dislocated mine. I suppose if you’ve ever went over on an ankle that’s how mine went when I hit a crash mat no less. Everyone thought my initial roar was because I’d missed the move I was going for and was frustrated. Lol I’m sorry to hear your boy got his fused but if it’s helped then that’s something. I’m running on it these days and it’s fine almost 20 years later. For a long time it was my own barometer. It would kill me and id say “it’s going to rain”. Lol as soon as it did the pain would go.
 
I could barely do 2 pull ups and 3 chin ups on a good day. I’m lean at 6’0 and 170 lb, I don’t have much weight holding me down. I’ve been working out for the past year on and off I'd say. I heard lat pull downs help (I can do 130 lbs). I can do 15 military push ups in one sitting (not sure if that helps or not). Another thing for me is that my wrists are small, I think I have more bone weight or something. I do curls often and it for some reason always feels like I'm kind of maxed out or something (I can only do 30 lb on each arm, with my max probably between 35 and 40).
My goal is to pretty much to get to 3x10 reps in about a month, not sure I’ll actually get there but I’m definitely going to try.
solved.
 
Also to stay on topic a bit… loads of climbers love to train pull-ups; some racking up some pretty impressive numbers. I know some really decent climbers; some that have impressive grade standards, that would struggle to do a single decent pull-up, let alone 10.
Sure, pull strength is important and an advantage in climbing, but it’s not everything. Not by a long shot. Oftentimes massive pull-up capability is limiting a climber; especially when it is masking deficiencies in skill and technique.

If I had to endorse or promote only one type of strength training for rock climbing and bouldering (indoors or out) it would be finger strength (grip). (But do pull-ups too…)
On the other hand, some very successful climbers have taken pull-ups to an extreme, and seem to do well with it. Check out the training program of Dmitry Sharafutdinov (triple wold champion, bouldering world cup winner) here: Bouldertraining: Das 700-Klimmzüge-System des Boulder-Weltmeisters It's in German, the gist of it is that Dmitry compensated for the lack of climbing facilities in his hometown by building up to extreme volumes of pull-ups. He does around 700 reps per session according to the article, 20 drop sets each with 40 and 50 kg added (accounting for around 300 reps, how he gets in the other +- 400 reps isn't specified). His 1 RM was + 72 kg at a bodyweight of 57-62 kg at the time the article was published, and and he managed 15 reps in a row with 40 kg added. What is even more impressive are the drop sets - if he could do 14 reps @ +40 kg a mere four minutes after doing 15, it stands to reason it was a fairly submaximal effort - and/or he has incredible recovery ability. Looking at the program, I'd say the main thing it does is boost work capacity. I'd reckon it allowed him to get in pretty extreme volumes of high intensity boulder problems whenever he did manage to go to a good climbing location.
 
Re-reading posts in this thread got me thinking....

I have seen an increase in my ability to do more reps of various pulling and pushing exercises by doing strength aerobics-style circuits with them. Basically:
-1-2, sometimes 3 reps of three to four moves in sequence, at a fairly "chill" pace, resting as much as needed.

-Do 10+ rounds this way and you might be surprised at the volume of total reps you can get compared to fewer sets of more reps of the same exercises. I was even able to do this with weights/exercises that I only had a 2-3RM of, getting a total of 20+ reps in the session.

This appears to be how folks who love those Iron Wolf style burpees are able to get 500-1000 pushups in a single session: by doing many sets of 5-10 reps.

OR. . .
Even single or double reps of grease the groove throughout the day will allow you to hit a high number of total reps spread throughout the day. Your goal is 3x10? Start by aiming for 15-20 reps spread throughout the day, then gradually increase that to 30. When you can do 30, clean reps, start doing sets of two and repeat.... The key with this kind of training is that you might at first feel like you're not doing very much . . .and that is actually what you want.
Yeah man. Iron wolf had me bust out 1000 push-ups in a session. That guys approach is volume gold.
 
On the other hand, some very successful climbers have taken pull-ups to an extreme, and seem to do well with it. Check out the training program of Dmitry Sharafutdinov (triple wold champion, bouldering world cup winner) here: Bouldertraining: Das 700-Klimmzüge-System des Boulder-Weltmeisters It's in German, the gist of it is that Dmitry compensated for the lack of climbing facilities in his hometown by building up to extreme volumes of pull-ups. He does around 700 reps per session according to the article, 20 drop sets each with 40 and 50 kg added (accounting for around 300 reps, how he gets in the other +- 400 reps isn't specified). His 1 RM was + 72 kg at a bodyweight of 57-62 kg at the time the article was published, and and he managed 15 reps in a row with 40 kg added. What is even more impressive are the drop sets - if he could do 14 reps @ +40 kg a mere four minutes after doing 15, it stands to reason it was a fairly submaximal effort - and/or he has incredible recovery ability. Looking at the program, I'd say the main thing it does is boost work capacity. I'd reckon it allowed him to get in pretty extreme volumes of high intensity boulder problems whenever he did manage to go to a good climbing location.
This is true. At world class levels all bets are off as far as training goes. Especially in a comp setting on artificial walls.

Good old Stevie Haston comes to mind here as well. That cat would routinely crank out 1,000 pull-up days…

But good technique, reasonable grip, and the right headspace will get a person up 5.12d trad with minimal pull-up training. Being able to lead at this level will get a person up more climbs than they could fit in a lifetime.
 
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Low Tech / low dollar … towels
High dollar … hang some Rolling Thunders
This is true. At world class levels all bets are off as far as training goes. Especially in a comp setting on artificial walls.

Good old Stevie Haston comes to mind here as well. That cat would routinely crank out 1,000 pull-up days…

But good technique, reasonable grip, and the right headspace will get a person up 5.12d trad with minimal pull-up training. Being able to lead at this level will get a person up more climbs than they could fit in a lifetime.
1000 pull-ups a day. That’s inhuman.
 
1000 pull-ups a day. That’s inhuman.

It actually gets better…

From Alpinist magazine…

In 1978, he moved 238 miles away from London to Llanberis in North Wales, a "village that has produced some of the greatest climbers in British climbing from Joe Brown onwards," Haston said. Today he lives on the island of Gozo, thirteen miles north of Malta where he first learned to climb. "I'm a Londoner. I'm a Cockney. I'm London scum," was one of the first things he told me. Haston is known for his bold routes on loose rock and his intense training regimen, which at one time consisted of 2,000 pull-ups and 3,000 push-ups a day. Although these days he rarely does such systematic training, every month he'll still whip out a big session of 1,000 to 1,500 pull-ups. We were there to talk about his love for the Utah desert.

AC6F751F-BFE0-4740-AEDD-DAC841D6DB6D.jpeg
 
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