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Old Forum What is shoulder packing?

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The shoulder joint is very mobile and loose. It is actively held together by muscles (unlike most other joints). The humerus (upper arm bone) is in a socket joint with the scapula (shoulder blade). As you probably know, the scapula is rather loosely attached to the body and able to move in a wide variety of ways and it forms a joint with the clavicle (collar bone) which is then jointed to the sternum (breast bone).

“Shoulder packing” refers to actively controlling the scapulae, pulling them close to the body and downward, so it is stable. It is the “keeping shoulders down and back”. It is not immobile, but stable. You can see this most visibly when hanging from a bar. If you relax, your shoulders shrug up and you are in a weak position.

Here is a good video showing some of it, although, I do not particularly recommend his training advice (more of a bodybuiilding focus, but he gives a pretty good visual demonstration of it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNa8-pvqEg A quick search for a video did not give me anything better, and you will likely get the point in the first minute or so.
 
Hello Steve, first things first: Bret Contreras didn't write that article, I did.  Perhaps you didn't see the opening introduction where this is stated, as well as Bret's expressed reservations about some of the assertions that I made.  Bret and I have had many, MANY communications exploring this very issue.  He is willing to consider many ideas, and is only concerned with sorting out truth.

99 out of a 100 people will assume a over-simplified understanding of this term, which perfectly demonstrates its semantic flaw.  Fixing the shoulders down and back is not exactly what the term was intended to mean.  This misunderstanding is covered in the lengthy post, well over 3000 words.  Included are two links to other discussions, including one by Brett Jones, who is well know in these parts.  Brett was also kind enough to engage in some thoughtful discussion on the issue, which I very much appreciated.

My viewpoint simply summed up was, and is, that the scapula must move in harmony with the humerus, this is known as scapulohumeral rhythm.  The scapula is a mobile joint for a reason, it must move as the arm moves to keep the humeral head in relative centration.  This is dynamic stability, controlling a joint through its necessary range of motion.  Controlling does not mean locking down.  Does this mean that we let it flop around and hang on ligaments and tendons?  No, it does not.

In my humble opinion, Brett Jones has a far better term for proper scapular stability, "sticky scapula".  This implies that the scapula is moving, just under tight muscular control.  As opposed to "packed scapula" which suggests an immobile, fixed scapula.

Having considered this matter far too much, I am persuaded that there may be a percentage of lifters who have the requisite A/C space to clamp their scapula down, and move their humeri overhead with impunity.  I am certain without doubt that another percentage of folks are going to find this painful, and injurious.

I suspect that this response may cause a bit of discussion, hopefully in a constructive, and thoughtful spirit.  I have come to my conclusions on the matter through years of study and personal experience and injury, but I clearly see that the "packing" approach works well for some.  I honestly have no dogmatic view on anything in strength training, go with what works for you, given your unique acromion.

Oh yeah, and get bulletproof abs, glutes, T-spine strength and extension, and  powerful traps from neck to mid back.  Packing or not packing may become a non-issue when these things are achieved.  If you don't stabilize and align globally, then you may find yourself over-stabilizing locally, and this is going to be a problem .

Just my opinion, and Pavel, if you are out there, much respect.  DB
 
My viewpoint simply summed up was, and is, that the scapula must move in harmony with the humerus, this is known as scapulohumeral rhythm.  The scapula is a mobile joint for a reason, it must move as the arm moves to keep the humeral head in relative centration.  This is dynamic stability, controlling a joint through its necessary range of motion.  Controlling does not mean locking down.  Does this mean that we let it flop around and hang on ligaments and tendons?  No, it does not.
I am not a trainer (except for myself), but I think the simplification "down and back" is based on the fact that many people do not intuitively control themselves well and will put themselves in a weaker, dangerous position. As the video I posted stated, many will find that position to be harder to hold (due to imbalances and weakness) so special attention must be given to holding it.

Naturally, I think if strong people were observed using their shoulders, the scapula would not be fixed at all, but to get to that level, a certain simplification is needed, as most people do not move very well without practice.

A focus on strength will overcome many particulars, as the strongest position for pressing will naturally be the position where one can press the most.
 
@Herr:  Just to show you how individualistic, (and unfortunately, polarizing) this topic can be, consider that for every Scooby video, there is a Kai Greene video demonstrating the exact opposite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMokQMW5lbU

Here's one concerning back training, cue ahead to 2:33, and look at the shoulders up by the ear.  Let the video run, and pay attention to the scapula rolling freely on the T-spine at 2:49.

Here's another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f7mbUQkJA0

and listen closely at  2:15, when Kai advises to consciously "open" the scapula, (upwardly rotate).

So there you have it...two really jacked dudes with different techniques/philosophies altogether.  I clearly have a preference for Kai's approach, and Rippetoes approach on overhead work, "active shoulder", but if someone feels better doing it Scooby's way, then more power to 'em.

 
 
Well personally myself I'm just trying to figure out what to do because I don't want to do something that will cause injury in the long run.

Again I don't mean to try and over simplify this but would it be a good idea in general to at the very least not let the ears touch yours shoulders?

Also I noticed that it is A LOT easier to do them and get them done more and faster in the " normal way " as opposed to packing your shoulders down.
 
@Steve:  I understand and relate to your confusion.  Scapular stability remains one of the more ambiguous and perplexing technique conundrums, (others include proper methods for spinal bracing, and proper toe out placement for SQs.)
My initial impulse is to suggest that you stiffen, and control the scapula, but do not attempt to lock it  down.  However, it is important that you learn, and listen, to your body.  Bear in mind that there are at least three different types of  acromion, and countless different types of neurological tendencies, mobility restrictions, etc.  Some are hyper-rigid over-stabilizers, and  others are too loose, sloppy, or hyper-mobile.   So yes, I personally believe there is variability in how to approach this.
Pain from exertion, or lactic acid buildup is good pain, and simply the price of admission to making favorable adaptations.  Conversely, soft tissue pain when you perform a strength training movement is a warning sign.  Stubbornly persisting through painful red flags, trying to follow a movement cue that simply does not work for you will cause problems.  As such, if you are progressing loads slowly, then the mechanism for injury will not sneak up on you.  You will feel acute pain that will become chronic only if you persist in the aggravating fashion, i.e., if you don't modify your technique.
You should feel stable, while also feeling "clear" to perform the action at hand.  When you get this balance of tension, alignment, and mobility right, it is an "aha" moment, and liberating.  You could call this getting in a groove, and then you "grease the groove".
Good luck!
 
Thanks for the videos. Very interesting.

I went just now to do some pullups to see how I do them, and while I do start by "packing" my shoulder almost strictly, when I do pullups, I do them more like Kai states, although, from the video, I have better range of motion and a different body type than him, so it is a little hard to compare.

However, from both Scoopy and Kai, it is clear that one should be in control of one's shoulder. Whether consciously retracting or opening the scapulae, one is in control of them.

Also, as a strand puller, I often start a pull with my scapulae retracted, and then open them as I pull. For a heavy Front Pull, I retract and pack my shoulders rather strictly, pressurize and tense my entire body, and then open my shoulders a little and start the pull (and of course, the pull ends with the scapulae retracted as much as possible, but that is the nature of the pull).

 

 
 
" least three different types of  acromion "

I googled the three types. Now my first question is how can you determine what type you have and second which one is designed or meant to do do the movements we are talking about here?
 
Recent thread about acromion: http://www.strongfirst.com/forums/topic/what-type-of-shoulders-are-good-for-upright-rows/

Do what is pain free and strongest.

The issue is impingement. In certain positions, the shoulder is impinged. This can be a non-issue, or it can cause inflammation and pain. If the shoulder allows for this impingement to be minimal in one position which is normally excessive for another type of shoulder, then obviously one can do that movement, even though someone else should not.

For example, I apparently have shoulders which are not good for dips. I am strong in dips. Despite not doing them, when I tried them a little while back, I could do many reps with bodyweight, and do them with added weight, but afterwards, pain developed and I had to rest for some time. So, while others may do dips a lot, I do not do them at all.

 
 
If you don't have time for an MD and Ph.D, here is what I do. If you don't have a Hane's T-shirt, reach back and grab the tag.

There you go: shoulder packed. That's how you finish a KB snatch or press.

If this comes off as medical advice, please forgive me, but I can teach 100 people in less than three seconds how to do this.

Continue on...
 
There you go: shoulder packed. That’s how you finish a KB snatch or press.
What about pullups? Do you think either Scooby's or Kai's advice on pullups (their advice being very different) is better?

In short:

Scooby: Shoulders down and back at all times during the pullup or press or fly.

Kai: Open the scapulae during such movements as one moves one's arms.
 
Steve Rogers, thinking about too many things while executing a lift is as bad as not thinking enough.  Get your checklist in order - clean explosively, rack tightly, keep your shoulder down using your lat, grip like crazy, and press the bell.

If you aren't sure what's the right checklist for you, get together with an SFG in person.

-S-
 
@Steve Rogers:   Steve Freides is correct.  You really can't think too much when lifting, you will become paralyzed.  Can you imagine if you tried to explain all of the muscular actions required to tie your shoes for example, and then try to follow that much detail?  Even as you know how to do it automatically, you would start to lock up with indecision, with too much cognition!

A short  checklist works best, and that's why I am always looking for cues that resonate with the individual trainees language of movement, as well as proprioceptive devices, rather than cues that I may get, but another lifter may or may not understand.

(So on that note, don't read this post,  b/c I'm about to go way, way down the rabbit hole, ha ha!)  OK, here goes:

I've been thinking a lot about Dan John's excellent tip to grab the tag on your shirt, and voila, shoulder is packed, and why it is so effective.  I believe that I have discovered the common theme that explains the discrepancy in approaches regarding scapular stability vs. dynamic stability:  It's the alignment of the T-spine.

To grab the tag on your shirt, requires you to extend and elongate your T-spine.  This is both cause and effect of the scapula posteriorly tipping.  Much as externally rotating the hips can work upwards to stabilize the pelvis, posteriorly tipping the scapula can act on the T-spine in a closed chain manner.  So as the T-spine is fixed, the scapula can roll in the open chain.  As the scapula is fixed, the T-spine can extend in a quasi-open chain manner, in response to the lower trap force from below.

So the two muscle groups, the trapezius, and the spinal erectors, work as a "push and pull" team, setting the alignment for the humeri to move.

Here's the area, where I have diverged from the packing approach:  I think it is better to absolutely fix the T-spine into hard extension, and this aligns the scapula favorably to move in a more open chain fashion, as opposed to trying to use the scapula to effect the T-spine position.  Now, maybe I am just splitting hairs here, as the two actions of T-spine extension, and scapular posteriorly tipping should happen in a coordinated fashion.

But I submit that once the scapula is posteriorly tipped (angled) to open the acromion, the whole ball of wax needs to roll upwards.  So if someone is bulletproof strong in the T-spine, then to pack or not to pack is really not even an issue, the "hay is already in the barn", so to speak.  The alignment is set.

My personal movement bias is to always think proximal to distal, from the core outwards.  Start from the hips and abs, which set up the T-spine, which sets up the scapulae, and further the humeri to move.

Put another way, folk are stable on a machine press.  Why? B/c the machine does the work of the glutes, abs, etc. to stabilize the entire torso, and allow the limb to move.  Having said that if you lean back into a bench and compress the scapula, then try to press overhead, don't be surprised if you get a sharp and searing pain in your supraspinatus, as the scaps are packed involuntarily, and the humeral head crashes into the acromion.  They are now TOO STABLE!

Does it work for a bench press?  Moreso, but immobilizing the scaps is the chief reason that the bench press jacks up shoulders, and push ups are more shoulder friendly.

(I think I just wrote an unsolicited guest blog here!)  Anyway, thinking out loud.
 
Interesting post.

I was thinking something of the same:
But I submit that once the scapula is posteriorly tipped (angled) to open the acromion, the whole ball of wax needs to roll upwards.  So if someone is bulletproof strong in the T-spine, then to pack or not to pack is really not even an issue, the “hay is already in the barn”, so to speak.  The alignment is set.
Over thinking it would probably lead to injury, so doing what is pain free and strongest is probably where the answer is.

Although, for the average person, who has horrible body awareness and is weak in the back, "down and back" for the start of most moves is probably good advice.
 
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