Kettlebell What would you lose/ gain by exclusively doing double KB Push Press over Strict Press?

[Dayz]

I'm specifically thinking for programs like the Giant. The Push Press would allow me to get much more reps and/or use a heavier weight. I also find it easier to recover from and anecdotally less injury risk.

What are people's thoughts on doing double PP over double MP?

What are the benefits and downsides?

Goals are 1. strength and 2. a little hypertrophy, in that order.

 

[Adachi]

I had an experience with push press that I could not replicate with strict press.

When I was playing with minimizing the amount of kipping involved with my push press, there were reps that very clearly exceeded the intensity of the strict press with the lower weight.

I could conjure clearly higher loading in a push press with a heavier bell, and when minimizing the amount of push from the legs I could reach incredible peaks of intensity that were way above the strict press.

That's an advantage I found with the push press. Varying the intensity from rep to rep, by varying the amount of leg drive, was something I couldn't do with my strict press practice.

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

Depending on the specific program, but I know there is a benefit to starting with strict press and then switching to push press to get the last reps in. Something about time under tension and having a heavier weight over head for longer. Same principle as controlled descent on pull-ups or curls.

 

[Mirek]

Gaining power, losing raw strength.

 

[mvikred]

Push press is more explosive and therefore serves more like a ballistic exercise. While you still need tension in the body, I wouldn’t expect it to be anywhere close to the tension one has to create in the body for a strict military press. Although you can get more reps in, you cannot mimic the tension one needs to create for a strict military press with a push press. Both are important but both would serve a different purpose. I prefer the strict press, unless I am lifting a weight that I can’t strict press

For the goals you mentioned, I would suggest that strict press would work best.

 

[John K]

@Dayz - I never saw much carryover between barbell push press and barbell press. You can recover from it better because, using the same weight, the virtual load is less. Not sure why you have less injury risk - might need to see someone about your pressing patterns.

Just remember that more isn't better, more is just more. You don't have to use a heavier weight if a lighter weight will work. That might sound backwards, but isn't. Something I continually have to tell myself is that it is OK to lighten the load.

If your goal is strength, often that is lift dependent. You can assess that by taking a baseline (say a TRM) with press and push press. Train only push press for 1-3 months. Reassess with TRM press and push press. If both go up, you improved strength. If only push press goes up, you may have improved strength but especially initially I would suspect the improvement is largely technical. If press maintains or goes down, your improvement doesn't carryover to pressing strength, but it might be possible to "realize" those strength gains by a short technical block.

If you're not interested in the press at all, well, there's nothing that says you have to train the press. If your goal is strength in whatever movement you are doing, then that can simply be assessed by whether you're able to progress - e.g. from 24kg to 32kg, you got stronger; from 32kg to 48kg, you got even stronger. If for Giant 2.0 you are clean and push pressing double 32kgs in 3 months while currently you're at 24kgs, I doubt anyone would say you didn't get stronger!

Hypertrophy will be less but if it is honestly a minor goal, you'll be fine. My understanding is that this is becuase the time under tension (TUT) the muscle is under will be less, and that is the (a?) leading factor in driving hypertrophy. If you do slower controlled negatives, this might then get washed out.

And honestly, we do this because we enjoy it. If you love to clean and push press and train it hard, you're going to see improvements and you're more likely to be consistent.

Too long? Basically - train it hard and you'll get stronger. If you don't see enough hypertrophy, "slower the lower" for a block.

 

[Dayz]

@Dayz - I never saw much carryover between barbell push press and barbell press. You can recover from it better because, using the same weight, the virtual load is less. Not sure why you have less injury risk - might need to see someone about your pressing patterns.

Just remember that more isn't better, more is just more. You don't have to use a heavier weight if a lighter weight will work. That might sound backwards, but isn't. Something I continually have to tell myself is that it is OK to lighten the load.

If your goal is strength, often that is lift dependent. You can assess that by taking a baseline (say a TRM) with press and push press. Train only push press for 1-3 months. Reassess with TRM press and push press. If both go up, you improved strength. If only push press goes up, you may have improved strength but especially initially I would suspect the improvement is largely technical. If press maintains or goes down, your improvement doesn't carryover to pressing strength, but it might be possible to "realize" those strength gains by a short technical block.

If you're not interested in the press at all, well, there's nothing that says you have to train the press. If your goal is strength in whatever movement you are doing, then that can simply be assessed by whether you're able to progress - e.g. from 24kg to 32kg, you got stronger; from 32kg to 48kg, you got even stronger. If for Giant 2.0 you are clean and push pressing double 32kgs in 3 months while currently you're at 24kgs, I doubt anyone would say you didn't get stronger!

Hypertrophy will be less but if it is honestly a minor goal, you'll be fine. My understanding is that this is becuase the time under tension (TUT) the muscle is under will be less, and that is the (a?) leading factor in driving hypertrophy. If you do slower controlled negatives, this might then get washed out.

And honestly, we do this because we enjoy it. If you love to clean and push press and train it hard, you're going to see improvements and you're more likely to be consistent.

Too long? Basically - train it hard and you'll get stronger. If you don't see enough hypertrophy, "slower the lower" for a block.

Thank you everyone, great responses. I particularly liked this. Makes a lot of sense. Something for me to think about. I think a block of push pressing is in my future!

 

[Hung]

Some coaches like push press more than strict press. The late Glen Pendlay is an example.

 

[John Grahill]

I humbly think that push presses are excellent! I had a carry over effect (or is it affect) from doing push presses to pressing strength years back. I think if you did the clean and push press for the Giant Program you could potentially make great strides. Geoff has indicated the Giant can be completed with push presses or jerks done full cycle, i.e. cleans in combination. I say try it. Sometimes just changing things slightly gives the body a new stimulation with which it adapts and makes positive changes! I say give it a shot!

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Do you have a specific strength target for your goal??

 

[Kev]

I'm specifically thinking for programs like the Giant. The Push Press would allow me to get much more reps and/or use a heavier weight. I also find it easier to recover from and anecdotally less injury risk.

What are people's thoughts on doing double PP over double MP?

What are the benefits and downsides?

Goals are 1. strength and 2. a little hypertrophy, in that order.

I’m of the opinion with these questions that the answer is “why not do it and find out”? Isn’t there a whole program from RTK which is built around double C+J? Why not push press instead? I can’t see there being some kind of magical reaction of the body which the Clean and push press wouldn’t trigger too. That’s my 2 cents. Instead of wondering what xyz will do if done for a set period I just go ahead and try it. I can’t imagine it would be a waste of time.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

double PP over double MP?

What are the benefits and downsides?

Push Press

Push press is more explosive and therefore serves more like a ballistic exercise.

AS mvikred, it is an Explosive Power Movement rather than a Maximum Strength Training Movement.

The muscle overload in the movement is greater at the top end of the movement that it is in a Military Press.

Thus, the...

Benefits of The Push Press

1) Development of Explosive Power

2) Increasing Strength in the top part of the movement.

3) The Push Press is not conducive for Hypertrophy Training.

The Military Press

This falls more into the category of a Maximum Strength Training Movement when heavy load are used.

The muscle overload occurs in the first one-third of the movement.

The muscle are underloaded in the top part of the Military Press.

Benefits of Military Press

1) Maximum Strength Development

2) Increased Strength in the first third of the movement; where greatest overload occurs.

Goals are 1. strength and 2. a little hypertrophy, in that order.

Different Objective, Different Training Methods

1) Maximum Strength Development

As you know, this is produce with heavy load, low repetition and long rest periods between sets.

2) Hypertrophy Development

This is produced with low to moderate load with high to moderately high repetitions and short rest periods between sets.

Cheat Military Press Hypertrophy Training

This is a good suggestion for Military Hypertrophy Training...

...starting with strict press and then switching to push press to get the last reps in.

Accentuated Eccentric Training

Eccentric are an effective Hypertrophy Training Method.

Accentuated Eccentric Loading can be accomplished by something as simple as performing a one arm Dumbbell or Kettlebell Press.
Once muscle fatigue occurs, drive the weight up with both arm, then lower it with the arm you have been pressing with.

Take Home Message...

Both are important but both would serve a different purpose.

With that said,

1) Increasing your Military Press Strength will help your Push Press.

2) Increasing your Push Press will help your Military Press.

 

[Ryan T]

I’m of the opinion with these questions that the answer is “why not do it and find out”?

Love this. It’s my opinion as well.

In general, @Dayz the push press is a very worthy lift to be a center piece of a power, programming block. Stability->Strength->Power. I’m sure you can get a lot out of VPP as well.

I trained double jerks as well as LCCJ for 3 months @20kg. At the end of it I went from strict pressing 28kg for RM2 to 32kg RM1 which I’d never done before.

Remember also that a max pressing effort is also speed driven exercise, which is why you can actually improve your press training the snatch at a load that allows for maximal expression of power + speed.

One thing to remember though is that you don’t want to muddy the technique of the two lifts. Train the push press or train the strict press.

One other thing I’ll add… At least for kettlebells, I’m a huge fan of the Jerk over the Push Press. Some stimulus to the legs, the increased demand for generating rigidity at the drop, more time under tension. The main drawback to the Jerk is the technical requirements. Do LCCJ and you’re in for the total package, but you’ll be more limited in volume and load as it will greatly increase the demand on your lungs and grip.

In the end, consider WHY you are developing attributes and train to that end. Don’t get hung up on finding the perfect plan either. Give something a shot, track how your body responds and proceed from there. Make sure you enjoy what you do as well.

 

[mikerobinson]

We do both in our training such that the barbell push press eventually improves the strict press.

For example, in the same session, we will start building up the weight usually in sets of 3s and 2s as a strict press. Once the weight gets too heavy for strict, next sets are push, until our top work set.

What this means is that over time the strict press is dragged up. For instance, at week 1 our strict press switches to push press at 50 kg. Then our push press tops out at 75 kg for 3.

Cycling up through the program over the weeks, by week 10 our push press might now be 85 kg for a single, and the strict press has been dragged up behind to 55 kg x 2.

We also usually finish with a set of 8-12 at a lighter weight for hypertrophy / assistance.

Example week:

Bar 2 x 5
30 kg 1x5
40 kg 1x3
50 kg 2x2 (last strict set)
60 kg single (start of pushes)
75 kg 2x2 (pushes)

40 kg 1x8.

We seem to be getting strength, explosiveness, tension, and some hypertrophy/assistance in the same program.

 

[Kev]

Love this. It’s my opinion as well.

In general, @Dayz the push press is a very worthy lift to be a center piece of a power, programming block. Stability->Strength->Power. I’m sure you can get a lot out of VPP as well.

I trained double jerks as well as LCCJ for 3 months @20kg. At the end of it I went from strict pressing 28kg for RM2 to 32kg RM1 which I’d never done before.

Remember also that a max pressing effort is also speed driven exercise, which is why you can actually improve your press training the snatch at a load that allows for maximal expression of power + speed.

One thing to remember though is that you don’t want to muddy the technique of the two lifts. Train the push press or train the strict press.

One other thing I’ll add… At least for kettlebells, I’m a huge fan of the Jerk over the Push Press. Some stimulus to the legs, the increased demand for generating rigidity at the drop, more time under tension. The main drawback to the Jerk is the technical requirements. Do LCCJ and you’re in for the total package, but you’ll be more limited in volume and load as it will greatly increase the demand on your lungs and grip.

In the end, consider WHY you are developing attributes and train to that end. Don’t get hung up on finding the perfect plan either. Give something a shot, track how your body responds and proceed from there. Make sure you enjoy what you do as well.

I actually find the push press more taxing than the jerk but aye. I agree entirely.

 

[Steve W.]

I've done most of my push pressing with Geoff Neupert's Kettlebell Muscle program, and I found it had a lot of carryover to playing basketball because in basketball you are often jumping "in a phone booth (remember those?" where you are among a lot of other bodies and can't use a full hinge, just a quick dip and explode. Kettlebell Muscle uses relatively light weights (a press 10RM), so it's not a matter of being able to use more weight than a strict press.

Based on this experience, I think there's a lot of overlooked value (at least in terms of sports training) to push presses with lighter weights, where the leg drive can propel the weights pretty much straight up into the lockout with minimal "pressing." I don't like the jerk for this application for two reasons. One is that in jumping you always want to fully extend to finish the jump. With the jerk, you have to quickly drop under the weight, which is not at all the movement pattern I want to groove. Second is that the catch position of the jerk, in a half squat with the weight lockout out overhead, is a very challenging position for many (if not most) people, and therefore they end up with some combination of a very shallow second dip, a hyperextended low back, and/or catching the bells out in front.

As far as injury risk, the push press does let you propel the bell through the bottom range, from rack to eye-level, relatively unloaded, and that's a range where a lot of people tend to have impingement problems. However, I would caution anyone to be careful about dropping the bells loosely into the rack without properly preparing to catch them and absorbing the force of the drop with the legs. If you're using a controlled negative, like the negative of a press, this doesn't really apply, but it's obviously more fatiguing.

 

[Cearball]

I did the giant series with the military press using 16+20KG & 20+20Kg aswell as 20+24kg & 24+24kg.

I did a programme called 50/20 (aim to get 50 reps in 20 minutes) with the push press 16+20kg & 20+24kg & 24+28kg.

Push press probably gave me stronger legs & better conditioning.

Military press did magical things for my core & hypertrophy.

But they are similar & the results I got did overlap.
Depending what I wanted to achieve would influence my choice of exercise.

 

[Kev]

The thing is you gave it a go and both the push press and press pretty much resulted in time well spent. And that’s my feelings about a lot of these “what if I only did…. “ questions. I had a buddy who only did swings and presses for a whole summer and he looked like someone carved him out of marble by the end of that summer. I think if all you did was tricep kick backs that would be the only wasted period of “what if I only did…. “. With kettlebells it’s all good as it’s all just horrible effort.

 

[John Grahill]

The thing is you gave it a go and both the push press and press pretty much resulted in time well spent. And that’s my feelings about a lot of these “what if I only did…. “ questions. I had a buddy who only did swings and presses for a whole summer and he looked like someone carved him out of marble by the end of that summer. I think if all you did was tricep kick backs that would be the only wasted period of “what if I only did…. “. With kettlebells it’s all good as it’s all just horrible effort.

Sometimes simple is best, back to basics.

 

[barrak]

As far as injury risk, the push press does let you propel the bell through the bottom range, from rack to eye-level, relatively unloaded, and that's a range where a lot of people tend to have impingement problems. However, I would caution anyone to be careful about dropping the bells loosely into the rack without properly preparing to catch them and absorbing the force of the drop with the legs. If you're using a controlled negative, like the negative of a press, this doesn't really apply, but it's obviously more fatiguing.

My worst shoulder injury happened during a session of lightweight Viking push-presses when I mistimed a rebound. So I can imagine It wouldn't take much to tweak a shoulder when dropping a heavy bell or two to the rack with minimal or no control.

As for shoulder impingement... when I had it real bad (until dead hangs cured it), the only safe overhead lift for me was the snatch.