Barbell What's the difference between "training max" and "competition max"

[Hardartery]

You're not comparing the same lift then. People might _say_ their gym max is higher than their competition max, but in my book, a competition max is the only thing that counts.

I tend to agree, there are so many variable to a meet that it actually proves something. I've never done an actual PL meet. I've been around for some, I've seen Ed Coan win one in person - I was competing in the Strongman portion. So I don't actually have any PR's that I would condsider anything but gym lifts. How do you quantify a Strongman lift? My squat PR is a Ford Escape! What does that mean? But most guys have a lift from the gym that's higher than anything they did in a contest. Guys that don't really compete anywhere will claim some patently ridiculous lifts in the gym, frequently. Is it real if it wasn't at a meet? Not to me. But, I lift more in a competition than in the gym. Other guys fold up under pressure and bomb. How you deal with the adrenaline matters. I had a training partner that at times would out lift me by a plate at the gym, but I blew him out of the water at a contest. I don't know if this is permissible on here, but drugs affect that too. I competed clean, and virtually no one else did. There are a lot of variables at play there.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Most lifters have a higher "Gym max" than "Contest max".

Poorer Lifters

Theses lifter have a higher Gym Max than Contest Max. That in part because...

1) Their Gym Max would never pass in a sanctioned meet,

In the gym these Powerlifter are performing Quarter Squat, having their butt come off the butt come off the bench or hitching their deadlifts.

2) They choke under pressure, as you stated.

Good/Great Lifters

1) They lift like they train. In other word, their lifts are spot on in the gym which carries over competition.

2) They rise to the occasion, as Steve stated.

You may not be able to control your environment but you can control how you react to it and keep a cool head.

Excuses For Better Gym Lift Than Competition Lifts

All the reason you listed for why many individual don't perform as well in competition as in the gym fall more into the, "It was my fault" excuses category. Don't do that.

Lean to control your environment, don't let it control you.

As per Yogi Berra...“Baseball is 90 percent mental. The other half is physical.

Learned Optimism


This an excellent book that goes into making excuses; owning up to bad choices and learning how avoid or make better choices when presented with the same situation or one similar the next time.

Playing Your Best Game All The Time


This examines how the mental aspects of how to play your best game; so control your environment and perform your best

Podcast Episode #08: Dr. Judd Biasiotto | StrongFirst

Dr Craig Marker has a great interview with Dr Judd Biasiotto on the mental side of the game.

Biasitto was one of the greatest 132 lb Powerlifters of his era.

Billy Martin

Martin was a good Major League Baseball Player and great Coach.

As told his players, "It's better to fall on your face going for the ball that fall back on your butt waiting for it to come to you."

Summary

1) Good/Great Athletes perform their best in competition.

2) Poor Athletes perform their best in the gym; they cannot transfer it to competition, falling short.

The Mental/Emotional Aspect

3) Good/Great Athletes learn, adapt to their environment

4) Poor Athletes allow their environment to control them.

 

[Steve Freides]

What am I missing? What would you say is the difference between "training max" and "competition max"?

There is an optimum level of excitement (many alternative words could be used here, e.g., nerves, energy, arousal, even anxiety) for various kinds of performances. That optimum level is highly personal, but we know it also varies by the lift. Part of "training" to "perform" in front of people is exactly that - the same kind of experimentation with form that you do for a lift, you also do for your mind and body as they are effected by a performance environment. It's why you see ammonia capsules being used before a lot of deadlifts.

To give you an example, this is something I heard Pavel advising someone during their Beast Tamer attempts - the pistol requires more calm while the press requires more intensity.

Actors and musicians will tell you that if they stop being nervous, they know they're ready to retire. The "energy" that a performance environment brings with it is something to be learned about and managed in order to produce the best possible performance.

Personal example: when things have gone well for me in the past, I had training cycles where I never went above 88% 1RM then set a big PR at the meet.

-S-

 

[Hardartery]

You may not be able to control your environment but you can control how you react to it and keep a cool head.

Only to an extent. I don't have direct PL meet experience, so I don't know exactly what you can run into. But I know that the knurl on a bar affects the lift. the humidity of the location on the day affects grip. The flex of the bar can have a huge effect on all three lifts. Most people can pull more with bumpers/wide plates than normal steel ones. If you don't have a springy DL bar for training, but that's what the meet has, that can really throw the lifter. Is there music blaring, or an announcer? Is the judge insisting on things that exceed the rules to get whites? There are a lot of variables that directly affect the lifts outside of the head. But yes, the good athletes do well under any conditions.

 

[Anna C]

To give you an example, this is something I heard Pavel advising someone during their Beast Tamer attempts - the pistol requires more calm while the press requires more intensity.

Yes, @randyh gave me similar advice when I had a mock weightlifting "meet day" getting coached with him in person in Boulder a few weeks ago. Namely that most athletes find it helpful to get psyched up and aggressive for the C&J. However for for the snatch, it's better to stay calm and just execute as normal, with focus and precision.

I got new PRs that day: Snatch 47kg, C&J 67kg. Have come a long way, but still have a long way to go...

 

[Anna C]

Actors and musicians will tell you that if they stop being nervous, they know they're ready to retire. The "energy" that a performance environment brings with it is something to be learned about and managed in order to produce the best possible performance.

Yes, I've heard referred to as "getting the butterflies to fly in a formation."

 

[Steve Freides]

Yes, @randyh gave me similar advice when I had a mock weightlifting "meet day" getting coached with him in person in Boulder a few weeks ago. Namely that most athletes find it helpful to get psyched up and aggressive for the C&J. However for for the snatch, it's better to stay calm and just execute as normal, with focus and precision.

I got new PRs that day: Snatch 47kg, C&J 67kg. Have come a long way, but still have a long way to go...

Nice - congratulations!

Yes, I've heard referred to as "getting the butterflies to fly in a formation."

I like that.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

There are a lot of variables that directly affect the lifts outside of the head.

That applies to everything in life.

So, stay at home or never lift outside your gym.

Problem solved.

 

[SamB]

@Anna C I'll mention just because it doesn't seem anyone has yet that with female lifters there's may be less difference between competition and daily maxes.

Mark Rippetoe's explanation of the difference between the sexes regarding percentage maxes as force production events is probably the best explanation I've heard. I.e. if a man and a woman both have the same 5RM, the man will usually have a substantially higher 1RM.

He has a video where he describes the first time he coached a woman at a PL meet and completely fudged her attempts and how this led him to tweak his NLP for women and also calibrate their meet attempts differently.

I'll add that the observations regarding relative RM's between men and women tally with my experience but I haven't coached people at a particularly high level.

 

[antiquity]

Most of my use and understanding of Training Max (TM) vs. Competition Max (meaning = best lift you've done) is that muscle is built by "punch the clock"-style workouts where you are doing crisp, explosive reps with a suitable weight. As Jim Wendler says "Start too light, progress too slow". Most coming to barbell training do the opposite: they pick heavier weights than they should, grind out ugly reps, and then are quick to want to add more. This results in no gains, injuries, and all around failure. The TM, as explained by the 531 program, is pretty close really to your 5 RM. So, you can Bench 205 lbs 5 times. Use that as your TM, and your percentages are based on this. You can't go wrong with this method, and you slowly add weight through the cycles. So, you would never handle a weight heavier than 95% of this during the first cycle.

As you can see perhaps, I have been using 531 pretty much exclusively now for years. I've recently decided to get more into KBs as a change of pace, a new challenge, and to keep improving. But using 531, I have improved dramatically on my lifts despite staying well below my 1 RM numbers. For example, I pulled 405 on DL this year quite easily without ever lifting more than 335 lbs in my training cycles. Without sounding like a salesman, 531 has really evolved into a great philosophy and framework to get and stay very strong without killing yourself or maxing out. Jim has made many changes to it over the years, perhaps because he is getting older and no longer a powerlifter.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

I find the less nervous I am before an event, the poorer the outcome of that event will be. It was this way in Track and Field, baseball playoff events, stage performances in music or drama, etc. I needed to be nervous or I’d be nervous I wasn’t nervous. This is only the anticipation, however. Once you get going, you are totally where you are, in that moment, and nowhere else. It is thrilling when months of rehearsal, training and practice finally come together for a spectacular event. If you’ve done your preparation wisely, it’s just enjoy the ride from there on. During a powerlifting meet, there is a sort of buzz I feel, an almost out of body experience. I barely remember the feel of the lifts as it’s nearly autopilot at that point. Adrenaline, the crowd, the atmosphere. It’s all just a ride.

Now that I’ve stepped off nostalgia cloud 9, as far as people performing better in the gym then a competition, like @kennycro@@aol.com these usually aren’t lifts that would pass. A thing I might add on, is that amateurs don’t have the patience to peak. In a world where we want it and want it now, people will blow cycles Pring in the gym. In my first meet, I had one fellow lifter who’d was my friendly competition at our meet. Well, a week before the meet he pulled 365 for ten when 5 was written in on his program. He barely pulled 375 at the meet and I smoked him all around. However, when you take competition seriously, and have a meet months out, you know every training session is geared towards a goal at that meet. Holding off on unleashing too soon puts “money in your bank” or lbs. on the bar so when that time comes, the strength is unleashed at the precise moment it is needed. This is one difference between the amateur and the professional.

 

[Anna C]

Lots of great advice and wisdom in this thread! I'm glad it got revived again.

 

[watchnerd]

I don't think so.

I don't think so, either.

At least most of the ones I've trained with / competed with over the last 7 years.

The good ones have their opening 1st lift about the same as their training max -- a solid guaranteed lift they hope to make to make sure they don't bomb out entirely by having 3 missed lifts.

Then they'll push harder on lifts 2 and 3......how much harder depends on how much the competition is adding weight to the bar.

 

[watchnerd]

Yes, @randyh gave me similar advice when I had a mock weightlifting "meet day" getting coached with him in person in Boulder a few weeks ago. Namely that most athletes find it helpful to get psyched up and aggressive for the C&J. However for for the snatch, it's better to stay calm and just execute as normal, with focus and precision.

Yeah, totally -- you can brute force your way through a C&J.

I pretty much still do, which is also why I don't split jerk, but squat jerk or power jerk.

The snatch, even after 7 years, continues to make a b*tch out of me in competition if the time between my 2nd and 3rd attempts isn't long enough for me to get chill again.

Which is becoming more and more of an issue as I get older and my age bracket gets thinner, with fewer lifters....

 

[watchnerd]

But I know that the knurl on a bar affects the lift. the humidity of the location on the day affects grip. The flex of the bar can have a huge effect on all three lifts. Most people can pull more with bumpers/wide plates than normal steel ones. If you don't have a springy DL bar for training, but that's what the meet has, that can really throw the lifter.

This barbell variance is something that those who are serious account for in their training.

I'm a weightlifter, not a powerlifter, but because of the effects of knurl and whip, I have multiple weightlifting barbells* -- one copy of each of the competition versions of the USAW-certified barbells, from Uesaka, Rogue, and Eleiko. That way, once I start the compete prep cycle, I can switch to whichever barbell will be used at the meet.

I also train with competition style and weight (2.5 kg per side) collars, and load the plates on the barbell in the order specified by competition plate loading rules.

My training environment is a competition-capable weightlifting platform, with wood insert, just like at a meet.

Thus, what I will find at the meet, on the platform, will be exactly what I trained with.

Anyone who doesn't do this is at a potential disadvantage vs someone who does.

*my strength barbell, used for squats and accessory lifts, isn't a weightlifting barbell at all.

 

[watchnerd]

• Learning and using whatever tricks work in competion like caffeine, sniffing ammonia, etc. (never tried)

Tricks I've used / my coach has used on me, in competition:

• Creatine Loading -- Absolutely 100% makes a noticeable difference. But you have to be willing to pay the giant leap of 4 kg of weight on weigh in day.
• Caffeine -- Dosage is important. 1 espresso, plus show andrenaline, is just right. 2-3 espressos and I get the shakes. That's not too bad for the C&J, but it messes up my snatch. Also, seems to effect my mobility negatively.
• Ammonia / Smelling Salts -- Works, but short lived. But also makes me sneeze, including on the platform, which messes things up.
• CBD -- Use edibles in the warm up room, helps me limber up quicker and deeper. Lasts for hours.
• Getting Hit on the Back / Slapped on the Butt --- Works, but I need to be thumped or spanked hard enough to sting, repeatedly.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

Yes, @randyh gave me similar advice when I had a mock weightlifting "meet day" getting coached with him in person in Boulder a few weeks ago. Namely that most athletes find it helpful to get psyched up and aggressive for the C&J. However for for the snatch, it's better to stay calm and just execute as normal, with focus and precision.

I got new PRs that day: Snatch 47kg, C&J 67kg. Have come a long way, but still have a long way to go...

That's certainly held true in my experience: I've heard a few weightlifters recite the adage "Snatch what you can, clean and jerk what you must,".

In my last competition (ages ago) I believe I hit a 1kg PB on my snatch and a 6kg PB in my clean & jerk on my third attempt for each lift. Looking back, my technique was trash, but I definitely had the right mindset and my attempt selection was spot on (which is crazy to think about, given what an absolute mess my mind is for much of the time!).

 

[Antti]

I'm not sure if these got mentioned lately:

Many athletes need to lose weight for competition. The videos from training are in fact done in a different weight class. And some botch the weight loss and end up even weaker than expected.

Some athletes need to cut off certain supplements for competition. It's ugly, but it is what it is.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

There is an optimum level of excitement.. Actors and musicians will tell you that if they stop being nervous, they know they're ready to retire. The "energy" that a performance environment brings with it is something to be learned about and managed in order to produce the best possible performance.

I find the less nervous I am before an event, the poorer the outcome of that event will be.

Adrenaline

As Steve and Philippe indicate, this increases adrenaline.

It's like nuclear power. If you can harness it, it works for you.

If you let it get out of hand, you you implode.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

The good ones have their opening 1st lift about the same as their training max -- a solid guaranteed lift they hope to make to make sure they don't bomb out entirely by having 3 missed lifts.

Easy Opener

Yes, your opener should be something like and easy.

Years ago, I bombed by starting too heavy. In a weight class with 6 lifter it, three of us bombed out.

The third place finisher, hurt his back and ended up taking third place with a 135 lb Deadlift.

What I then learned was the...

The Chip McCain Rule

McCain was a World Record Deadlifter and Nationally Rated Powerlifter.

As per McCain, his opener was his last warm up...something really light and easy.

The objective of the first lift is to ensure that you are in the meet.

As we know there's nothing worse that bombing out and going home early. Three month or longer or training down the toilet.