Other/Mixed When is fudging form okay?

[bluejeff]

I’m asking this question mostly as a matter of opinion, but I’d also like to see what the certified folks have to say.

The question is basically this: when is changing, altering or breaking form on an exercises considered “acceptable?”

this question has a couple different parts to it.

Part one is the main one that I have, and it has to do with the difference between working around limitations…..and reinforcing them.

For example: person A has some issues with their shoulder(s) and is told to use gymnastic rings for pull-ups and to press dumbbells or a kettlebell over head because it will allow them to “work around their limitations.” An elaboration on the over head pressing example is this: when it gets heavy, it seems that most people’s overhead press turns into a very inclined chest press that straightens at the top. In the case of heavy kettle bells, I see people do a slight lean away from the bell, either to the side or back as in the overhead press.
The question is: when is this considered acceptable and when is this reinforcing bad habits? Also, if someone has flexibility limitations and chooses an exercise that basically allows them to move around those limitations, aren’t they going to reinforce different and possibly poorer movement patterns?

Another example I see a lot of on social media these days is squatting knees forward vs knees out. It seems that pushing the knees out and maybe even turning the toes out a significant degree allows people to “work around” their poor ankle and hip mobility. But it also seems to come at the cost of back issues, among other things.

when I used to teach calisthenics/gymnastic strength training, I very often saw people cheating their way into shoulder flexion (by internally rotating and allowing the scaps to retract a degree) and also twisting their ankles/knees out to get lower in a squat. Many of them complained that they weren’t getting any more flexible, or that they “always had tight shoulders/hips/ankles/etc” It frustrated me as a teacher because it was clear to me that weren’t actually listening and addressing their limitations.

Thoughts or experiences there? Studies?

the second part of the question is basically how strict are SF standards for things like a KB press? If someone’s going for a half body weight press and they lean a bit, does that get flagged? How about other movements?

These kinds of things have been on my mind as I go about the long and tedious process of fixing my limitations, so I’m curious what others thoughts and experiences are.

 

[Steve Freides]

@bluejeff, we must start by recognizing that there isn't universal agreement on what constitutes good form, and competitive lifting doesn't require anyone's idea of good form be followed.

The question is basically this: when is changing, altering or breaking form on an exercises considered “acceptable?”

For max attempts, or for a specific training purpose.

For example: person A has some issues with their shoulder(s) and is told to use gymnastic rings for pull-ups and to press dumbbells or a kettlebell over head because it will allow them to “work around their limitations.” An elaboration on the over head pressing example is this: when it gets heavy, it seems that most people’s overhead press turns into a very inclined chest press that straightens at the top. In the case of heavy kettle bells, I see people do a slight lean away from the bell, either to the side or back as in the overhead press.
The question is: when is this considered acceptable and when is this reinforcing bad habits? Also, if someone has flexibility limitations and chooses an exercise that basically allows them to move around those limitations, aren’t they going to reinforce different and possibly poorer movement patterns?

Very few people have no movement limitations. Recall that the Functional Movement Screen's perfect score is 3 for every tested movement, but that a score of 2 is perfectly acceptable to load a movement pattern. Perfection, again, isn't universally agreed on, anyway.

Someone who has "limitations" the prevent them from doing a Sots Press can still perform a Military Press safely and acceptably. The MP requires less flexibility and therefore performing it is in no way reinforcing a bad pattern, it's executing a less demanding pattern.

If you watch Fabio Zonin's just-introduced online pressing course, Victorious, you'll learn that StrongFirst does not require zero lean, and Fabio discusses exactly why and how leaning away from the bell is appropriate.

Another example I see a lot of on social media these days is squatting knees forward vs knees out. It seems that pushing the knees out and maybe even turning the toes out a significant degree allows people to “work around” their poor ankle and hip mobility. But it also seems to come at the cost of back issues, among other things.

There are a million different ways to squat. Neither forward nor out is universally proper for all strength schools or all builds. When I squat, I focus on getting my knees forward and keeping them there throughout the majority of the movement - that's the cue I need. My knees stay out just fine, one of the wonders of being bow-legged. No back issues for me - I squat as my particular body wants me to squat. And my right foot turns out a little more than my left in my squats, my deadlifts, and all my other lifts. That's just the way my hips need to be.

when I used to teach calisthenics/gymnastic strength training, I very often saw people cheating their way into shoulder flexion (by internally rotating and allowing the scaps to retract a degree) and also twisting their ankles/knees out to get lower in a squat. Many of them complained that they weren’t getting any more flexible, or that they “always had tight shoulders/hips/ankles/etc” It frustrated me as a teacher because it was clear to me that weren’t actually listening and addressing their limitations.

This is why no one should learn without in-person instructions at, the very least, some points along their journey. An experienced eye should give guidance, and it sounds like you did that for your students. And we must also say that some lifts do tend to make some lifters tight in some ways, so those people need to stretch those things.

the second part of the question is basically how strict are SF standards for things like a KB press? If someone’s going for a half body weight press and they lean a bit, does that get flagged? How about other movements?

Again, answered in Fabio's video course, and also in the published standards, which allow a slight lean. StrongFirst: Victorious

-S-

 

[Steve W.]

I tend not to be too doctrinaire about this issue.

Any notion of "proper" form for an exercise (or "proper" body mechanics in general) is an intellectual construct, not an objective reality. What constitutes "proper" is dependent on your values, goals, capabilities, and the tradeoffs and compromises that you're willing to make, all of which involve a lot of subjectivity.

Being a high-mileage athlete of relatively advanced age and with a long sports injury history, I consider working with and around my limitations to be both necessary and positive, and I would assert that's true of anyone to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[Antti]

Load will always change the form for everyone.

The big question, in my view, is whether the exercise becomes unsafe or ineffective. In the example of the overhead press, I don't typically care about some lean with heavier weights. Of course, if one has lower back issues with extension, it can be different, but that's a specialised situation, not an universal one.

As an aside, regarding the knee travel in the original post, I believe people have different structures of the hip etc and that plays a lot into squat stance, width, foot angle, rotation.

 

[Antti]

As yet another aside, I think this thread is a good example of the benefits of the new forum organisation. This is clearly a general topic that shouldn't be confined into a specific category, but that deserves the attention of all users, regardless of their chosen tools.

 

[MattBM]

If it’s safe it’s okay by me.

Beyond that, technique or form is a form of progression. I come from a calisthenics training background, where technique is the primary form of progression for many movements, but the same can be applied tany training modality.

Can’t quite move the next size bell? Go back to your current size and work on dialing form in even more!

Or do cheat reps until you can do it with better form. A push press with a strict lower is kinda like a crappy military press working toward a military press with a given weight.

 

[bluejeff]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies!
I agree with everything said above.

In regard to knee travel specifically, I am not referring to just the angle of the femur/foot. I’m aware that different hip joints have different optimal angles. I mean specifically the act of pushing outward with the knees. In this example, we often hear that pushing out activates the glutes better, which may be the case; however, shouldn’t the glutes act as hip extensors in the squat, not abductors, if that makes sense?

In regards to high mileage and injuries: having mileage and wear and tear is one thing, although one could argue that those are kind of vague terms.

However, I might argue that improper injury rehab perpetuates “problem areas/joints.” What I mean is that anyone who has had a moderately serious injury or surgery, enough to where they couldn’t do normal activities for a period of time, will be aware that you have to extra careful not to change your movement patterns. Our brains will instinctively try to move around an injury if we try to use the affected limb/joint.
For instance, in a rotator cuff injury/surgery, the tendency during rehab might be to use the trapezius to lift the shoulder, because it avoids use of the affected muscles in the joint. The brain is trying to protect against the injury. If not properly rehabbed, with good supervision of correct motor patterns, such a person may walk away with a weaker rotator cuff and subsequential neck tension from always using their traps to lift their arm. An extension of this idea is that if someone has a weak link (in the case of shoulders: low traps and serratus are quite often the weak links) and keeps trying to work around it or ignore it, their movement patterns will reflect that, and the weak link won’t get any better for it, obviously. It may even lead to an injury.

so that’s kind of the heart of the issue I’m thinking about here. I’m definitely NOT saying there is some ideal, perfect form for every exercise. I think I just get the impression that a sizeable group of people are “cheating” their way into heavier weights and performance at the expense of using their body less effectively. The amount of “why does my ‘x’ hurt?” questions is evidence for that I think.

 

[Daniel Vintila]

Not 2 people will look the same when they perform the same exercise.

Also when pressing a heavy weight you have to make room for the weight to go up, that's why your body gets away from it or slightly behind in the case of a barbell.

As a coach it is up to you to assess if what your client is doing is putting him/her at risk or not. If there are no actual standards to be respected, such as training for a competition, then your client's safety is your priority. Usually good form will be the safest thing for everyone, but as we said it might differ from person to person and that's where the experience of a good coach comes into play. Also as a coach it is up to you to bring out the best of your clients, and take advantage of their strengths and fix their weaknesses or imbalances.

It frustrated me as a teacher because it was clear to me that weren’t actually listening and addressing their limitations.

This is a good example. Some people are happy being mediocre and doing stuff they are good at and feel comfortable get the work done and get out.
Not everyone will want to work really hard and take a few steps back in order to make a broader jump ahead. This is where comunication and understanding is key. I've had clients who were just happy to be there training and not interested into achieving a very good level of skill.

 

[Steve Freides]

@bluejeff, we’re not saying bad compensations never happen because you’re right, they do! But the human body is a complex, highly variable thing. Things like this:

however, shouldn’t the glutes act as hip extensors in the squat, not abductors, if that makes sense?

oversimplify things, greatly, IMHO, is all.

-S-

 

[bluejeff]

@bluejeff, we’re not saying bad compensations never happen because you’re right, they do! But the human body is a complex, highly variable thing. Things like this:



oversimplify things, greatly, IMHO, is all.

-S-

Agreed! I was just trying to think of a simple example for a not-so-simple subject ??‍♂

 

[Steve Freides]

Agreed! I was just trying to think of a simple example for a not-so-simple subject ??‍♂

Yes, and the trouble is that these things aren't either/or, they exist on a continuum. Oh, well ...

-S-

 

[Antti]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies!
I agree with everything said above.

In regard to knee travel specifically, I am not referring to just the angle of the femur/foot. I’m aware that different hip joints have different optimal angles. I mean specifically the act of pushing outward with the knees. In this example, we often hear that pushing out activates the glutes better, which may be the case; however, shouldn’t the glutes act as hip extensors in the squat, not abductors, if that makes sense?

In regards to high mileage and injuries: having mileage and wear and tear is one thing, although one could argue that those are kind of vague terms.

However, I might argue that improper injury rehab perpetuates “problem areas/joints.” What I mean is that anyone who has had a moderately serious injury or surgery, enough to where they couldn’t do normal activities for a period of time, will be aware that you have to extra careful not to change your movement patterns. Our brains will instinctively try to move around an injury if we try to use the affected limb/joint.
For instance, in a rotator cuff injury/surgery, the tendency during rehab might be to use the trapezius to lift the shoulder, because it avoids use of the affected muscles in the joint. The brain is trying to protect against the injury. If not properly rehabbed, with good supervision of correct motor patterns, such a person may walk away with a weaker rotator cuff and subsequential neck tension from always using their traps to lift their arm. An extension of this idea is that if someone has a weak link (in the case of shoulders: low traps and serratus are quite often the weak links) and keeps trying to work around it or ignore it, their movement patterns will reflect that, and the weak link won’t get any better for it, obviously. It may even lead to an injury.

so that’s kind of the heart of the issue I’m thinking about here. I’m definitely NOT saying there is some ideal, perfect form for every exercise. I think I just get the impression that a sizeable group of people are “cheating” their way into heavier weights and performance at the expense of using their body less effectively. The amount of “why does my ‘x’ hurt?” questions is evidence for that I think.

Regarding the knee travel, I agree, the big glutes extend the hip and the rotation is done with other muscles. They're obviously felt in the butt but it doesn't mean they extend the hip or that the big glutes get work even if you feel the rotation in your butt. Like compare a sumo deadlift to a conventional. I'm not sure I agree with the tendencies to activate the glutes or squat with a rubber band around the legs. However, I wonder if there's a mechanism between the abductors and adductors, the adductors being a very strong hip extensor. It goes over my head for now but it is something that has been on my mind.

I think your newer example of form regarding injuries goes further than the original example of the lean in the press. For sure, we agree regarding the injury care. Though I will say, having done the mistake enough myself, that trying to out cue an injury based compensation in a lift with good previous form just will not work in any way and can actually lead to worse form once the injury has healed. Of course, it depends on the exact injury.

I think that typically the body always chooses the strongest way to lift. The squat turns into a good morning because the lift is possible that way. Yet, we should always try to practice the form that is most efficient and safe in the long run. What that is, is not always evident.

 

[MikeL]

There is evidence that in a technical physical movement, those who drill the prescribed technical movement become susceptible to injury. Those who deliver a result, but perhaps are not technically pure, often avoid injury and maximise performance.
The issue comes, as you’ve identified, if the movement is judged. But in a race, for example, if you get from A to B propelled by yourself or given tool, then there we are.
There are a lot of top athletes, also, who do not have good functional movement. They’ve developed for their sport. Look at a kayaker, their shoulders will be “too far forward”… no point fixing it, it helps them.

 

[Steve Freides]

There is evidence that in a technical physical movement, those who drill the prescribed technical movement become susceptible to injury.

Ah, but look at Ed Coan. Not injured a lot during his career as I remember things - correct me if I'm wrong - but always technical perfection.

-S-

 

[bluejeff]

There is evidence that in a technical physical movement, those who drill the prescribed technical movement become susceptible to injury. Those who deliver a result, but perhaps are not technically pure, often avoid injury and maximise performance.
The issue comes, as you’ve identified, if the movement is judged. But in a race, for example, if you get from A to B propelled by yourself or given tool, then there we are.
There are a lot of top athletes, also, who do not have good functional movement. They’ve developed for their sport. Look at a kayaker, their shoulders will be “too far forward”… no point fixing it, it helps them.

For clarification: Are you sort of saying if you only train a particular pattern then the patterns you don't train get underdeveloped? or that it can basically lead to overuse injuries?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

When is changing, altering or breaking form on an exercises considered “acceptable?”

Different Exercise

With all exercises, alternating the movement pattern...

1) Turn it into a different exercise

2) If your focus is on good technique, it reinforce poor technique.

Maintaining and Developing Good Technique

Research has determined...

1) Loads of around 85% plus of 1 Repetition Max performed for singles, maybe doubles are the most effective.

2) The exercise needs to be performed first in a program, when you are fresh.

3) Once Muscle Fatigue sets in, technique is altered. The exercise needs to be stopped.

Continuing in a fatigued state is counterproductive. It reinforces poor technique.

Increasing Strength In A Technique Movement

Auxiliary Exercises that are similar in nature to the movement and involve the same muscle groups will increase strength.

Since the Auxiliary Exercise isn't the focus in the development of technique, it is somewhat acceptable to get it up anyway you can; break technique.

However, just remember that alternating any movement, turns it into different exercise.

 

[MikeL]

For clarification: Are you sort of saying if you only train a particular pattern then the patterns you don't train get underdeveloped? or that it can basically lead to overuse injuries?

If you only train a particular “pure” pattern, you lack (potentially) resilience to external factors.

For example, (a crude one mind); You might be able to run a sub 20 5k on track, stick that on a trail and you lose both ankles and a tooth with the same form. You slow down, and you can’t deliver.

 

[Steve Freides]

If you only train a particular “pure” pattern,

No one has suggested that. Train for performance and train for resilience, just maybe not in the same lift and at the same time.

-S-

 

[bluejeff]

Standard KB presses and bent presses, windmills, and arm bars come to mind...

There's definitely something to be said for "training odd angles,. I guess my query was more oriented towards, "when is it counterproductive to break form?"

I think that training for resilience and breaking form might be two different things. You should be able to slip outside perfect form without fear of injury, but I'm not convinced that constitutes the same thing as "training for resilience." There's a reason that you lift heavy things a particular way, and there are more effective and less effective ways to run and sprint as well.

 

[Anna C]

"when is it counterproductive to break form?"

"Breaking form" takes you away from:
1) a proven method that works and avoids many known problems
2) the movement pattern that you have trained and your body has learned to tolerate and be strong in
3) the most efficient path to accomplish a lift

A bit of qualifying about each of those:
1) means there is a way that a particular method calls "good form", but it's necessarily the only way. So that becomes a debate about the relative merits of different methods.
2) is only applicable if you train with "good form" but break that form with a heavier attempt or some other reason. If you train with your "not good form", it's possible your body learns to tolerate that and is fine with it. Rounded back deadlifts come to mind here.
3) mostly applies to competition lifts such as powerlifts (squat, bench, deadlift) or Olympic Lifts (snatch, C&J). Could also apply to kettlebell press, bent press, etc. But with many other strength training lifts, we're not trying to be most efficient. We might even be trying to be inefficient. It's all about stimulating an adaptation and working the body in a way we want to get stronger.

So, relative to your question of "when is it counterproductive to break form?"
1) if you like another method better, it can be productive. If it means you learn to do it another way and then you have to go certify or coach or be coached or judged in some way in the first way, then it's counterproductive to train it differently.
2) it can be more likely to cause injury or tweak if you get out of the groove you're trained in
3) it can be less efficient, therefore less successful in lifting more weight. Think of a deadlift where the bar gets out in front of you and you end up lifting more with the back than the legs.