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Kettlebell Where do you go after Simple?

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Yes. We just finished a 3 month experiment with a modified version (more rest) of this. The protocol delivers fantastic endurance; how you apply it is up to you. As a welcome side-effect, there were strength gains as well... something not seen in pure endurance work.
 
Thank you very much for the answer. That sounds really interesting!

Do you plan to write an article about the new protocol?
 
I hope we hear more about it! I was one of the test subjects, and I am so happy that I invested the 12 weeks with this training protocol. Here is the summary that I posted in the Facebook group:

Finished all my post-tests this week, and I saw improvement across the board! This is really pretty amazing, since run and snatch were not part of my training during this 12 weeks, other than the testing. Test results:

Run: 1.5 miles
Pre-test 5/29: 11:54
Post-test 9/4: 11:30
Improvement: 24 seconds
(Note: 11:30 today was my fastest 1.5 mile run EVER! And I have run less than 10 times this year.)

Snatch test: 5 min, 16kg
Pre-test 5/27: 100
Post-test 9/2: 107
Improvement: 7 (7%)

MAF test (stationary bike): 45 min
Baseline 6/23: 14.55 mi. (note - I didn't do a pre-test on this test)
Test #2 7/21: 13.8 mi.
Test #3 8/11: 14.3 mi.
Post-test 9/1: 14.7 mi.
Improvement: .15 (1%)

Other improvements:
Lean body mass increase: 1.8 lb measured by Bod Pod.
Swing proficiency, weight (20kg-> 24kg), volume ability much greater. Some sessions I did > 300 1H swings w/ 24kg.
Arms, shoulders, abs, glutes, quads all improved muscle tone.
Road bike cycling: improved ability on sprints and hills, much quicker recovery after hard efforts, and no decrease in average speed despite only one rider per week (or less).
I also increased get-up strength and did not see any decreases in press, pull-up, deadlift, or squat. I suspect I could easily increase them quickly with any focus.
My HR recovers very quickly after hard efforts.

My conclusion:
A solid training method that provides improvement in aerobic condition, alactic/power development, and strength! Dials in your swing like crazy, and teaches you to stay in a zone of training that is sustainable and low-stress.

(Also note, I am 47 years old. Gains like this are hard to come by!)

Now, back to S&S to see if I can move along towards Sinister....
 
Ah, Anna and now I know your secret to your your great swing form. You seem to swing a lot (besides constantly refining your skills).
My questions:

- goes the Maffetone test like this, for example: I do my rowing on my concept2 staying at my Maffetone hr (for me 142) for 45 min steady state and log my meters/miles?
- was the schedule basically as described by Al in his article, except for changed rest periods?
- how were the rest periods arranged, meaning in which hr zones did you train, e.g. did you have a hr on which you started your next set?

thanks in advance.
 
Harold,

- MAF test is a test of your aerobic function. Use a locomotion activity that you are efficient with and complete 30-40min of work while maintaining your MAF HR. Record distance and/or time for comparison. Warm up properly, or you will skew the results.
- We worked each set to HR, not time, as described in that article. I found that swinging on the minute is either too frequent, or you have to use too light of a bell.
- rest to the HR spike of the NEXT set... this is individual for each person. This is not zone training.
 
Thanks, Al. Early this year I was pondering between your protocol or Pavel' "from Simple to Sinister" as I wanted to work the 40k the volume with the old (every minute on the minute) seemed not doable for me, so I immersed into Pavel's.

So for my understanding, (in case I give yours a shot in the future): the schedule is still valid, and for my resting should be at such a length, that I get to my hr (180-38 in my case) as close as possible, considering that my hr still can climb 10-20sec. after the termination of the set to my heartrate of 142bpm.

By the way, to make (little) adjustments on rest time, e.g. letting hr to come down to an individualized level, seem to make very big difference in recovery, from set to set, session to session, weeks to weeks, maybe ad infinitum. It makes training repeatable in Dan John's.
But as I said in other posts: there were many clarifications in this regard and still going on, and your input had very big impact on this board, and that's really great.
 
Harald, yes, a lot of swings! I tallied close to 9,000 in the 12 weeks, and my first thought when I ran the totals was that this isn't really a lot compared to some programs... but these are S&S swings, 1H, heavy, hard-style. So for that, yes it's quite a high volume. The focus on recovery between sets helps build to it.

One of the first sessions https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/793411523
Last session https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/880646013

On Garmin Connect you can zoom in on the HR graph for a better look. Lots that could be analyzed here; I have all 33 sessions recorded...but one thing that is clear is how much quicker my HR drops after the set in my later sessions.

MAF test http://philmaffetone.com/maf-test/ Yes, your description for the concept2 sounds right.

I was also surprised at how well the 3 tests I did correlated with each other the 3 times that I did all 3 tests in a week. That suggests to me that any of them can be a good measure of one's aerobic baseline from one time to another... though the MAF test is a better way to test aerobic effort without the glycolytic effort added to it, which you get in the run and snatch test.
 
Thanks Anna. Looking forward to your reportings when resuming the Sinister Simple program....for me it became some kind of a "new" program. (with all the accumulated experiences). Peculiarly it is more or less all written in the book.
 
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It is good to return to it. I did an S&S session yesterday "by the book", although the size I'm working with is an in-between (28kg)... I'm claiming female prerogative on that, haha. It is just right for me now. Didn't watch the clock but I did video my session to guage where I am. 9:50 for the 10 sets of 10 swings, 1 min break, then 10:50 for the 10 getups. Even with my recent swing conditioning, I think the swings are going to take a while... though I will have to try a "test" session and see how little recovery I can get by with and still maintain a good set of swings. Focusing on recovery breathing (as you describe so well, Harald).

And of course, the "non-stop swings" session every other week... (From S&S Summarized, item 10.) "Every two weeks take a kettlebell one or more sizes lighter than the one you are currently swinging, and do as many swings as possible without setting the bell down." Haven't tried that in a while. Always a blast!
 
Anna, Harald,

I've found it quite hard to judge when I am properly warmed up for a MAF test, one thing that helps me is to take split times by km rather than just go for 45 minutes. Then compare time for 1st km, 2nd km etc across subsequent tests. I think in Phil's book he suggests looking at your fastest km (should be your first if you are properly warmed up) and comparing that. It may be hard for you to access the data though?

Harald - In my experience the Concept C2 is great for aerobic work / MAF test - really easy to keep a constant heart rate.

Anna - Great work to knock out a 1.5 mile PB at age 47. Now you have returned to S+S are you still keeping your HR aerobic in the sessions?
 
krg (Karl?), my MAF test method is not 100% right per the method but it's pretty close and once I did the test this way I wanted to be consistent. Just a light warm-up then I got on the stationary bike for 45 minutes: 5 min bringing HR from 100 to 133, then 35 min w/ HR as close to 133 as I could keep it (varies 130-137, but often right at 133), then 5 min bringing HR down from 133 to 100. The bike tells me the "distance" covered in that time.

Yes, really quite amazed with the 1.5 mile time! I had to do a 1.5 miles every year for 20 years in the military, so I have done it many times... never under 12 min until now.

As for S&S and keeping HR aerobic... no, I don't intend to keep my HR under a limit as I have been for these last 12 weeks. A few reasons for this - and should be noted that they may pertain to me more than others:

1) I have learned to correlate HR with how I feel. I could usually tell you exactly what my HR is without looking at the monitor. But...
2) 10 swings per set max tension (max hard style) often spikes my HR above aerobic range. I want to do 10 swings per set per S&S, and progress with this. And...
3) I maintain aerobic training with bike riding (2-3 hrs/week) and intend to start running more, at aerobic pace. This should cover my aerobic training.
 
Yes. We just finished a 3 month experiment with a modified version (more rest) of this. The protocol delivers fantastic endurance; how you apply it is up to you. As a welcome side-effect, there were strength gains as well... something not seen in pure endurance work.
Hey Al, I'd also love to see a summary or writeup of the results. Extremely interesting!
 
Hey Al, I'd also love to see a summary or writeup of the results. Extremely interesting!

Travis, much like Anna's... or better:

- by metric, maintained or increased anaerobic function, while increasing endurance
- by anecdote, "[physical] job is easier", "more capable", "stronger in daily life", " I don't get out of breath", etc.

Maybe more questions than answers...
 
[QUOTE="Anna C, post: 42567, member:
2) 10 swings per set max tension (max hard style) often spikes my HR above aerobic range. I want to do 10 swings per set per S&S, and progress with this. [/QUOTE]

Anna, while I advise most people against messing with established programs, given your analytical mind and attention to detail, I do not see any problem with you tweaking S&S. 20x5 or 14x7, etc.
 
Awesome... a special license to experiment! I'll do that.

4 standard S&S sessions this week with 28kg; Today's session https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/902659939 The swings were all good, plenty of recovery for power... but HR does go high. I am OK with this, though. In fact, the power of the swings has not diminished despite less rest time. I want to push farther to even less recovery and see what happens. This is still 10 minutes for the 10 sets of swings, and I think I can do it in less time and still get the same quality swings. Is this pushing too hard, I wonder? I'm considering this... but also aware that I've spent a lot of time in "base" phase, time to "build" and push a bit into higher HR zones... in endurance terms. It's only 5-10 minutes, right?. I do this all the time on bike rides. Time in higher HR zones is OK with me. But I do truly see the value in keeping HR low. I'm just experimenting, now. Anyway, I love these discussions about HR, energy systems, and training methods...

I was thinking a bit more today about HR recovery. As I noted above, my HR recovers more quickly now after a set of swings (and after a hard effort on a bike ride). I tried a few searches today to research this and came up empty, except that if HR drops less than 12 beats in 1 minute you are likely to die soon, or something like that. Does anyone know anything about HR recovery and what that really means?
 
Anna, I have an old Polar that shows the recovery- you can set it for whatever time you want. You just stay relatively still during the time period. Using 1 minute, which is sort of standard, I'd use 10 or less as too hard of a workout for condition that day, 10-20 as ok, and 20-30 as optimal for base training. I'd mainly use this to plan the next day's workout- if I get a 9 after a really hard workout (and didn't die!), I'd do easier workouts 'til I got a 24 or so. It's also a really good way to keep track of your overall condition. Sometimes a lower number after a relatively easy workout means you might be getting a cold or have some stress or something systemic, and it's a good idea to back off then and figure that out.

When I ran a lot, I also used to use the A.M. HR as a recovery gauge. After you get a baseline, if it's within a few beats of your normal, rested value, then you're good to go for a regular workout, if it's 5-10 beats higher, it's an easy or recovery day, more than that, off. Since HR responds to all types of things in your body, it can also be an indicator of something else that's off systemically. Over time with a log you can figure these things out- like stress, poor sleep, illness coming on, etc. Different opinions on when to take HR (like first thing, or after morning urination, and if so, how long to rest again), but consistency is most important.

I've seen some of the less than 12 and you'll die articles, but never figured out how they related the workout to that. I think they're based on some study with people who didn't work out taking a standardized treadmill test, and following their mortality for a few years. This is totally different than doing workouts and tracking it regularly. If I did a bunch of 72sec quarters on a 90 degree day, and my recovery rate was below 12, I knew it wasn't because of a bad heart...but I did know I was vulnerable and just jogging a few miles the next day or two, until I was recovered.
 
Interesting... so, the rate that the HR drops after a set of swings my be indicative of the state of recovery that day, sort of like HR Variability (HRV)?

There might be some interesting data mining that could be done from my swing protocol sessions over the 12 weeks, or something to be learned relative to others' experience. Here they are, in case anyone is so inclined:

Week-Session / Min / Wt (kg) / Swings / HR graph
W1S1 22 20 206 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/791691105
W1S2 28 20 210 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/793411523
W1S3 28 20 220 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/795250443
W2S1 26 20 210 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/798431954
W2S2 30 20 200 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/800294965
W3S3 30 20 248 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/802035692
W3S1 22 20 220 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/805375651
W3S2 30 20 248 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/808050239
W3S3 22 16 280 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/808995794
W4S1 34 20 288 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/812161711
W4S2 46 20 358 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/814037067
W5S1 30 20 232 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/819016178
W5S2 40 20 280 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/819977643
W5S3 20 20 200 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/820784791
W5S4 30 20 312 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/822607984
W6S1 31 24 260 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/825728864
W6S2 42 24 248 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/827569074
W6S3 30 20 210 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/828466017
W6S4 50 24 320 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/829342471
W7S1 22 24 180 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/832542265
W7S2 40 24 274 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/834520613
W7S3 35 24 225 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/836312328
W8S1 36 24 268 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/839503089
W8S2 30 24 210 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/841572299
W8S3 30 28 180 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/843451667
W9S1 30 24 220 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/846722156
W9S2 60 24 365 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/848680234
W9S3 36 24 256 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/850673154
W10S1 24 24 200 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/854249368
W10S2 21 24 160 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/848680234
W10S3 35 24 332 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/850673154
W10S4 21 24 176 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/858170846
W11S1 20 24 200 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/861625542
W12S1 20 24 180 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/876603153
W12S2 16 24 124 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/878740418
W12S3 46 24 340 https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/880646013
 
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