Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
Concur.
It’s also nice, especially if you’re squatting and pulling heavy, to hypertrophy the muscles on exercises that are easier on your spine…or that may kill you if you fail the rep.
Other/Mixed Base Building for Strength
- Thread starter silveraw
- Start date
Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
It’s also nice, especially if you’re squatting and pulling heavy, to hypertrophy the muscles on exercises that are easier on your spine…or that may kill you if you fail the rep.
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
Yes, and when you minimise fatigue on things like the low back, you do belt squats and supported rows etc.
Dydo
Level 5 Valued Member
I am currently training with one working set of 1x12-15 almost to failure. I do one exercise for each muscle in each workout. Generally bench press in one workout and incline bench in the other workout. Row in one, lat pulldown in the other, one exercise at a time shoulder exercise, biceps, triceps, quadriceps, hamstring, calf. For a while, the muscles on the inside of my forearms started to hurt, but when I started doing more rеps, the pain gradually started to disappear. I don't feel fatigued with this type of training and just aim to be able to do 12 or 15 reps (depending on the exercise, like for legs I do 12 reps) with a heavier weight. I work out about every other day and feel great. And purely psychologically, it is easier to focus on only one working set, in which you strive to lift 12 or 15 times the specified weight. I don't know where this way of training will take me, but for now I'm ok. However, my goal is also to lose weight or rather reduce a significant amount of fat.
metaldrummer
Level 6 Valued Member
Back-off sets is my cardio. 
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
Yeah, I understand (and generally agree with) the idea of "more first reps". However, I don't know how/why/where that became "NO ONE DOES 10 REPS - THAT'S SToOOpID!"
I think we're on the exact same page with this. I know I need a lot more work in the 50-75% range. Like. A lot. More.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
The General Adaptation Syndrome
Information has been posed on the form numerous time. However, it appears, not enough. The subject continues to be overlooked, forgotten and misunderstood.
As bluejeff notes, one of the keys to long term progress that is built on..;
Periodization Training
One of the components of Periodization Training is to perform a Training Cycle with certain exercises.
Then in the in the following Periodization Training Cycle employ different exercise.
Varied Exercises
Data suggest that constant intensity training with varied exercises (CIVE) is more efficient to produce strength gains for physically active individuals. Changes in exercises are more effective than in loading schemes to improve muscle strength, Changes in exercises are more effective than in loading schemes to improve muscle strength - PubMed
Anecdotally, all knowledgeable Strength Athletes and Bodybuilder vary exercise for long term gains. It is one of the fundamentals of the Westside Powerlifting Protocol.
That Is A Stretch
Higher Repetition Training exclusively fall more into Bodybuilding Endurance. Strength increases are limited compared to individual training with Lower Reps and Heaver Load. as you know.
Quantifying This
Technique Training and Development for Strength Athletes is optimized with load of 85% plus of 1 Repetition Max performed for singles.
Performing Lower Weight for dialing in form for a 1 Repetition Max does little in the Development of for a 1 Repetition Max. Muscle involvement and Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber is not Trained nor Developed.
Effect of Barbell Weight on the Structure of the Flat Bench Press
Effect of Barbell Weight on the Structure of the Flat Bench Press
Król, H and Gołaś, A. Effect of barbell weight on the structure of the flat bench press. J Strength Cond Res 31(5): 1321–1337, 2017—In this study, we have used the multimodular measuring system SMART. The system ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
This research further demonstrates that different Training Percentages (Loads) in a movement change the muscle involvement...
"While doing the bench press at a 100% 1RM load, the pectoralis major changes from being the prime mover to being the supportive prime mover. At the same time, the role of the prime mover is taken on by the deltoideus anterior. The triceps brachii, in particular, clearly shows a greater involvement."
Technique Development with Lower Training Percentages
The use of Lower Training Percentages (let's say around 70% of 1RM) provide some Technique Development; however, are not as effective as the use of Higher Training Percentage (Loads).
Summary
1) Training Percentages need to be taken into consideration when training a competitive lift.
2) For the general training purposes, individual will find that the development of the group of muscles in a movement can be altered/trained to a greater degree by varying the Training Percentage/Load.
Analogy
Let's go over this redundant analogy.
Practicing hitting a 60 mph hour pitch makes you good at hitting a 60 mph pitch. However, not a 90 mph pitch.
An individual staring out need to start with learning to hit the ball at a lower speed. Then work up to hitting higher speed pitches.
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
Yeah, I agree. What I was saying is that, in the calisthenics world, not the powerlifting world, a lot of the very strong athletes use high volume. They don't all use exclusively high volume though.
Maybe I need to elaborate my point. My point wasn't that using lighter weight helps you move your 1RM better, it was more that using lighter weight helps you to move better, and that will translate to just being stronger in general. I think you need both. You need to be able to produce force with good technique for high-intensity movements/lifts (1RM powerlifts, etc), and you need to be able to move well in general.
Reading the last page or so of comments since yesterday, I have a thought:
It's clear that everyone responds differently to different training styles, AND that what training modalities you choose depend a lot on what outcomes you are after. Most people in this thread are into powerlifting, so it seems obvious that would be the focus. Why do things that might take away from your performance if you're seeing the results you like? I believe the spirit of the topic was that if you are stalled, then expanding your "base" might be a way to un-stall yourself.
One notion I've seen a few times lately (in this thread, and others) is that "higher rep sets are hard on [someone's] joints." I think the devil is in the details there. First, are you doing high reps with too high of a load? Second, are you doing higher reps of the same moves you do at higher weight for lower reps, i.e. powerlifts? Then I hate to say it, but I think you might be missing out by not changing the movement up that much. All three powerlifts have you either in extension or moving towards it. The low bar back squat has you using your back more to lift the weight (it's got a lot more hinge to it that a front squat, which is much more of a vertical movement), and the bench press has you pushing from a position you would never use in any other situation. This is a whole topic on its own, so I won't belabor it too much. All I will say is this: if you only move one way, and don't move in different ways, then I am not surprised that your joints complain when you do higher reps.
If you do your incline dumbell presses the same way as your bench, that's not much different. If you do bodyweight squats like barbell back squats, that's not much different. It is possible to move the body in a different orientation, while not really changing the relative motion between joints. If you move in shortened ranges of motion most of the time, and never allow tissues to really expand and stretch, I am not surprised that your joints don't feel great.
So I guess that's another argument (of mine) for base building to include variety. If you're plateauing, and/or your body has a lot of "issues," then changing things up and adding more variety might help both of those things. AND, some people might do just fine not changing things up much!
Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
Some solid points here @bluejeff
I think something we can all takeaway is that there’s only so much training allowance and adaptation demands we can handle in a program. Heck, I’d love the program that lifts my total, makes me limber as a jaguar, yoked to the extreme with the symmetry of the Giza pyramids but I’ve yet to find that unicorn.
Everybody’s got their preferences, goals, training styles and throughout the spectrum of possible combinations, many are effective along any point of that range.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
I don't know where it comes from, either, but I call it "misapplication of intensity".
GreenSoup
Level 6 Valued Member
I like the plans that @silveraw and @John K started the thread with for a change of pace from low rep work. Simple and reliable plans are fun.
I also like the attitude of just base building for some lifts while working on others. It's kind of interesting that I've been starting this not-at-all simple plan recently:
I know it is a program all unto itself. But adding to another program for maintenance and base building of skills you want to keep but don't want to add to your recovery debt? After playing with the charts It seems useful for pure strength if you just use it with casually long rest periods for one or two accessory exercises while you focus on a "main" plan at another time of day. That is how I'm using it for crush grip and KB press maintenance. It's a lot of volume but feels super easy when you treat it this way. You could us it as a primary plan that works the big lifts (as intended on the URL) but just spreading it out over two lifts is very light.
On this plan the "heavy" days feel pretty easy and most days have many more than 5 rep sets. I have some 11 rep days scheduled. But I presume Fabio Zonin knows a lot about strength. On this kind of plan the high reps just feel like an opportunity to get in a lot of good practice.
I also like the attitude of just base building for some lifts while working on others. It's kind of interesting that I've been starting this not-at-all simple plan recently:
Variable Effort and the Triple-Tier Plan | StrongFirst
For over a decade at StrongFirst we have advised against pushing sets to failure and advocated towards always keeping a few reps “in the tank.”In recent years we have heard more and more often from well-known strength coaches, and on the web, about Rate of Perceived Exertion (RPE) and Reps in...
www.strongfirst.com
On this plan the "heavy" days feel pretty easy and most days have many more than 5 rep sets. I have some 11 rep days scheduled. But I presume Fabio Zonin knows a lot about strength. On this kind of plan the high reps just feel like an opportunity to get in a lot of good practice.
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Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
I think peaking is overrated. Maybe it's more useful for PED users since they seem to increase the doses as meets come closer.
I routinely see people lift good numbers without getting that close. As a rough number, I could say 85% of future max, and that 85% is hit rarely.
Then again, I'm not yet sure how we define peaking/strength bias or base building opposed to strength training.
Alan Mackey
Level 7 Valued Member
Unless peak strength demonstration is your sport of choice, chasing 1RM PRs seems pretty pointless to me.
I mean, what do I need a 700lbs deadlift for? Is there really any benefit over being able to pull 440lbs. for a bunch of beautiful, controlled and perfect reps even if I had no sleep the day before?
Base building is safer, more enjoyable and way more sustainable. And, incidentally, it will increase your 1RM too (at a very much slower rate but, hey, glacial progress is still progress).
Also, going hard-ish once in a while between huge chunks of base building may be a fun, nice change of pace.
Hung
Level 8 Valued Member
Timo Keskitalo
Level 6 Valued Member
I seem to be getting to close to the results of 15 years ago with training load that is only a fraction of what it was back then. 5x10 -> 5x8 -> 5x5 or 6x6. Feeling like the last set is killing me.. While it feels like necessary, it really isn't.
Whosonfirst
Level 8 Valued Member
This is close to what the late, Jack LaLanne said was an ideal training plan for older trainees. Do you post your training on the forum?
Dydo
Level 5 Valued Member
I posted in my training log but stopped because it seems pointless. I have an app on my phone where I record everything.
The only problem for me is that I want to go to the gym more often. Which is why I have to train in a brother split or something like Upper-Lower or push-pull.
Whosonfirst
Level 8 Valued Member
Thanks for the response. Except for my college days, I've trained at home, on a 3rd floor attic bedroom growing up, and in a basement or garage gym since then. I've visited a few gyms near my former employers, but never liked the equipment or layout. One of my employers even offered us a discount for the one gym.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
I've thought a lot about the analogy of a training foundation with building a sand castle. You can only build so strong a foundation before you probably need to start building some towers. Otherwise how will you ever know if you've been building the right foundation or how strong your foundation really is?