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How have you benefited from Zone 2?

North Coast Miller said:
I'd think coming off of years of HIIT, a 14 week block of Z2 should have done something, either measurable (resting HR or blood pressure) or subjective (I have more wind going up and down stairs).
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Not even a lower HRrest is indeed weird.

My rationale behind my feeling is this:
The benefits of Z2 are not the same as HIIT, but do overlap. If the training impulse of your years of HIIT is the same as your 14 weeks of Z2, not much will happen.

The main thing I can think of is that for whatever reason your Z2 program just didn't give your body enough reason to adapt. Maybe it didn't progress enough in volume? Maybe you subconsciously lowered your overall activity while focussing on Z2. Maybe you didn't eat enough?.Lots of guesses here.

Interesting stuff though!
 
offwidth said:
I think if a person wants to really move their AnT upwards then pushing from beneath it with Z2 work AND pulling it from above with HIIT is a good way to go about doing it.
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I love this description of pushing beneath with Z2 and pulling from above with HIIT.

I'm doing this currently, though not strict Z2 or HIIT. I 've switched my primary training for a 6 month period, Apr - Sept this year, to cycling first, and weightlifting second. For the past 4 years it's been weightlifting first, and cycling second. I'm 5 weeks in now and feeling strong on the bike. I'm not worrying too much about zones right now -- just trying to do a long ride, an easy ride, and a hard ride once a week, with total moving cycling time currently around 5 hours per week (up from 2-3 hrs/wk previously) and I'm aiming to increase that by 30 min per week towards September, 12-15 hrs per week to prepare for an endurance event at the end of September. I feel like the easy and long rides are pushing from below, and the hard ride is pulling from above. However it works, I am definitely improving back towards my previous cycling ability, and it feels great! Meanwhile I'm maintaining fast twitch fiber in the lower body with power training and overhead strength and lifting ability with barbell and kettlebells with 2-4 lighter and less volume lifting sessions thanks to my genius coach @randyh.
 
fluke said:
Not even a lower HRrest is indeed weird.

My rationale behind my feeling is this:
The benefits of Z2 are not the same as HIIT, but do overlap. If the training impulse of your years of HIIT is the same as your 14 weeks of Z2, not much will happen.

The main thing I can think of is that for whatever reason your Z2 program just didn't give your body enough reason to adapt. Maybe it didn't progress enough in volume? Maybe you subconsciously lowered your overall activity while focussing on Z2. Maybe you didn't eat enough?.Lots of guesses here.

Interesting stuff though!
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I actually combined this with higher output isometric/isotonic program. My resting HR was mid 50's already, but BP runs high, not often dipping much below 140/90. This is what I most hoped would be effected.

Z2 was tracked using hr monitor to stay between upper 120s and mid 130s.
 
I am a former ultramarathon runner who used MAF (180 minus my age) for many years as a proxy for my Zone 2 HR. Based on my current age, my MAF would be in the low 120s (without any modifiers).

Over the past 12 months I have been using Joel Jamieson’s Morpheus HRM which estimates daily training zones based on a range of subjective and objective data. On days where my recovery is good the top of my Zone 2 is in the low 140s, almost 20BPM higher than my MAF. Peter Attia has reported that Morpheus correlates well to his blood lactate testing and to the talk test (I concur when it comes to the talk test, I have never measured my blood lactate).

That was a long way of saying that I may have spent many years training below my actual Zone 2 HR so may not have reaped all of the benefits of this type of training. While I don’t do ultras any more, Zone 2 training remains a big part of my training and my resting HR is in the mid-40s which is probably not too bad for someone my age.
 
I did an 8 week block of Zone 2 through Tactical Barbell, their Capacity program. The test before and after was a 6 mile timed run.

Pre-Test: 1:10:45 (11:47 pace).
Post-Program: 0:58:54 (9:49 pace).

I was a bit deconditioned after a work injury so that has to be taken into effect but it was essentially Zone 2 work three times a week, and I would rotate running one day with rucking the next (occasionally the exercise bike as life dictated).
 
North Coast Miller said:
Used my MAF number, correlated with talk test.
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Nothing wrong with MAF, but I have noticed it varies greatly from person to person what kind of zoning system fits best.
The MAF number is based on statistical averages. And nope, most people are not average.

You mention you run Z2 around 130-ish bpm. What if that's so low it leaves potential gains on the table?

If you want to be sure, you need to have a "gas exchange test" or "lactate test" done. Cumbersome, expensive and not readily available, but it's the only truly accurate method as far as I know.

For self-testing there's the MAF number and talk-test, which you already know. But, there's at least one more option: the "heart rate drift test". This test will give you the top of your Z2, and it might be quite a bit higher than your 130. The caveat though, is that you should be able to run at a set pace for at least an hour. It's fairly accurate for a self-test though, and free so you can do it on a regular basis. I like it a lot.

There's one more thing that you could play around with: using "Heart rate reserve" (HRres) instead of HRmax. For me personally (n=1), this is in line with my tested zoning ánd with my HR drift test and gives me a higher number to work with compared to MAF or other formulas. I might be that lucky average Joe, but it's something to considder.

You need a measured/tested HRmax and HRmin for this.
If we set Z2 at 60-70%, here's how to use HRres:

HRres = HRmax - HRmin
Use the required HR% on HRres, and add HRmin to get to your working HR.

Easy example: let's say you have a HRmax of 200 (oh what its like to be young again) and a HRmin of 50.
HRres = 200 - 50 = 150
70% x 150 = 105
Working HR is 105 (HRres) + 50 (HRmin) = 155, making this the top of this persons Z2.

Try it out, it might give you a higher number than the 130-ish you had before. That cóuld explain your lack of results.
 
What I mean with Zone 2:

- I run so fast that I feel that I am actually running and not trotting. This is the bare minimum to implement Zone 2 via running. If you can't run for Zone 2 and need to "jog" the stress on the joint is not worth it in my opinion. From my experience, this means that you run at least 9-10 km/h.
- If you think about what you are doing in Zone 2, you can quickly go by feel. The talk test is something external. But running in Zone 2, by definition, should feel easy and flowy. You should be able to think freely about anything that you want and not feel distracted by the intensity of your workout.
- Every test of intensity should correlate with the exclusion of FT-fibers during the training. If your training means just using your ST-fibers, you avoid almost all recovery costs. So, it is basically free *if you do it correctly*.
- The *most important aspect* is that you develop the feeling of Zone 2 to reap the benefits. Almost all problems (including my own problems in the past) of implementing Zone 2 stem from the lack of feeling. All the formulas and external tests are rough approximations that should result in you developing your intuition for Zone 2.

My Zone 2 tactics:

- I run first thing in the morning, before I do my strength training. It is completely compatible, since I don't put stress on any of the limiting factors of the strength training with my endurance training. I stick to 65-85%1RM with 2-5 reps, having plenty of reps in the tank. (Run too fast and your CNS gets taxed, your FT-fibers get fatigued etc.)(train too heavy or with too few reps in reserve, your training stimulus depends too much on your acute recovery status)
- This can be done up to a pretty high level. I am approaching all time PRs in the exercises I train even though I am 40 (pull-up: 1RM=85kg, now ~70-75kg, BW 110kg). To me, this is surprising because I almost never peak (e.g. test 1-5RMs, train with more than 85% etc.).

My Zone 2 benefits:

- No additional time cost for me: I turned my dog walks into do runs.
- Improved aerobic base which translates into better recovery times, better metabolic flexibility etc.
- Could reduce my high intensity endurance session, which saves time and energy.
- Quiet time for my mind. The very nature of Zone 2 is that it is relaxing on the mind. I often use the time to focus my thinking on a specific problem (Cal Newport's "Productive Meditation"), sometimes just relax and sometimes do my prayers.
- The added total training volume improves my health acutely (e.g. more muscle contractions during my fasting window results in specific health effects etc.)
 
sfast said:
If you think about what you are doing in Zone 2, you can quickly go by feel. The talk test is something external. But running in Zone 2, by definition, should feel easy and flowy. You should be able to think freely about anything that you want and not feel distracted by the intensity of your workout.
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But we are not all you.

-S-
 
sfast said:
If you can't run for Zone 2 and need to "jog" the stress on the joint is not worth it in my opinion. From my experience, this means that you run at least 9-10 km/h.
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- how did you determine that jogging was too much stress for zone 2 to be worth it, but the stress from running was appropriate?
- how did you determine that 9-10 km/hr (~5.5-6 mi/hr) to be the cutoff between jogging and running?
- are both of these cutoffs (run for zone 2, run is 10 km/hr + ) unique to you, or do you think those are broadly applicable?
 
sfast said:
What I mean with Zone 2:

- I run so fast that I feel that I am actually running and not trotting. This is the bare minimum to implement Zone 2 via running. If you can't run for Zone 2 and need to "jog" the stress on the joint is not worth it in my opinion. From my experience, this means that you run at least 9-10 km/h.
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I hope to one day experience zone 2 running.
 
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